Town Militia vs Spear Militia ?

[Shahed]

Which one is better at melee vs infantry ?

[Minamoto]

Quite obviously the spear militia since they are qualified as spearmen, whilst town militia is simple light infantry, and I beleive only the spear militia can create shiltrom which is an insanely superior formation against cavalry.

[Carl]

He specified vs. infantry. in that case it's Town Militia as both have identical stats except for some weapon attributes. These attributes give Spear militia a bonus vs. Cav, but a penalty vs. infantry. The same bonuses are not present in full for Town militia and as a result they don't suffer the anti-infantry penalty, but they aren't as good vs. Cav either.

[sapi]

Still, in terms of versatility you want to take at least some spear militia in any army made up of militiamen

[Carl]

Of course. Spear Militia are FAR, FAR, FAR better at receiving Cav charges and as a result you still need them a lot. I was just answering the basic question.

"Which is better vs. other infantry?"

A proper army should have a mix of spear militia, town militia, archers and Cav. (In the early stages of course, later on Spear/Town militia get replaced by other better castle units).

[sapi]

Of course, if you merely want to win, an army with a mix of light cav, heavy cav and general's bodyguards does fine

[Carl]

LOL, well i play my ProblemFixer mostly and if your tried charging Spear Militia with Mailed Knights or below you can fully expect your Cav to simply bounce. With gold Armour, (or Armored Sergent's), everything with less than 8 charge bounces and you can expect sufficiently upgraded Sergent's to cause everything to bounce. Papal Guard in Schiltrom are effectively immune to any type of melee Cav.

So experiences like the above do tend to influence my army composition statements.

[Shahed]

Quite obviously the spear militia ....can create shiltrom which is an insanely superior formation against cavalry.

In theory yes, in practice no, hence the question.

He specified vs. infantry. in that case it's Town Militia as both have identical stats except for some weapon attributes. These attributes give Spear militia a bonus vs. Cav, but a penalty vs. infantry. The same bonuses are not present in full for Town militia and as a result they don't suffer the anti-infantry penalty, but they aren't as good vs. Cav either.

Thanks.

What is the quantitative value of this anti-infantry penaly for town militia ? and where is it located ?

BTW I'm playing PureFixer and wow it's soo cooool to have governors again.

[Carl]

What is the quantitative value of this anti-infantry penalty for town militia ? and where is it located ?

We don't know we just have text descriptions to go on telling us the basic effects, so where guessing ATM i'm afraid.

It's not big though as player controlled spear militia can beat AI controlled Town Militia Head on, (bearing in mind that the player controlled unit gets a big bonus in combat compared to the AI controlled one).

Sometimes I wonder if Town Militia don't still suffer anti-infantry penalties, just smaller ones than spear militia.

I'll try to do some tests at some point.

[Shahed]

Hmm what bonuses does player controlled spear militia get vs AI controlled town militia ? Would'nt it be the other way around.

Wow I'm a n00b... again ! :D

[Carl]

Unknown, it just seems that all units under player control fight better than when they are under AI control. Take any unit and give yourself one and the AI the other and I can garuntee the player controled unit will win.

[Shahed]

Did'nt know that. Thanks.

[pike master]

basically the difference if any is so small you are going to have a hard time proving unless you ran about a hundred tests.

[Shahed]

So... concensus is to train Spear Militia ?

[Mr Frost]

So... concensus is to train Spear Militia ?

My word you should train them , because they are bloody terrible right now !



















Oohhh , I kill me .

[Shahed]

Well as long as you keeeeeel something I guess its ok !

LOL ok I get the point. I'm not training them anymore. UNLESS they can KEEEELLL something .

[Carl]

@Sinan: Since your playing my ProblemFixer they're actually a LOT better than even the 1.2 versions and can resist, (with Gold Armour), Formed Cav charges from everything of Feudal Knight Quality or less.

[Shahed]

Then they're not entirely useless. BTW I added spearwall to Billmen for a test and they did much better. I also tested Levy Spearmen with spear wall and they actually killed 40 MK for a heroic victory. Only the general got away (of course!). It seems out of place to give a tier 1 spear unit spear wall though. I'm still trying to figure out how to give England a decent anti cavalry unit without making it too easy. I think I'll just leave things as they are for England and use stakes and charge fodder, unless anyone else has a better idea.

[pike master]

if its easy to mod units like bills and jannisaries to spearwall why dont CA make em like that in the patch?that makes me mad. B(

also try taking multiple units of spear militia and moving them to the same spot in schiltrom to form a martels anvil or super schiltrom whatever you want to call it.

you will find them to be very very tough versus other units.

[Carl]

if its easy to mod units like bills and janissaries to spear-wall why don't CA make em like that in the patch?that makes me mad. B(

Easy, CA wants Eastern Halberd and Polearms of all kinds to be different to western Halberds, (which are spear-wall units). They specifically set them up as something different to create verity.


Regarding the Spear vs Light_spear debate.

Just done some tests, whilst it's clear that town militia DO have an advantage over Spear militia, it isn't a big one. AT the same time it is equally clear that the Light_Spear Attribute DOES inflict a penalty vs. infantry, just a lesser one than a full spear. Considering the similarities between Spear Militia and Town Militia, (the cost difference being insignificant enough to discount as a "real" difference), I'd classify this one under the "bug" heading.

[Foz]

Regarding the Spear vs Light_spear debate.

Just done some tests, whilst it's clear that town militia DO have an advantage over Spear militia, it isn't a big one. AT the same time it is equally clear that the Light_Spear Attribute DOES inflict a penalty vs. infantry, just a lesser one than a full spear. Considering the similarities between Spear Militia and Town Militia, (the cost difference being insignificant enough to discount as a "real" difference), I'd classify this one under the "bug" heading.

Hmm. I'm becoming considerably less convinced that town militia are "sword and shield-like." I just ran a test (in 1.2) of town militia controlled by me against AI spear militia. The Spear militia were winning, and only lost due to the untimely loss of their general - they were ahead 67 kills to 61. As a result, I'm pretty much giving up on using town militia when spear militia are available, they seem strictly superior: you pay only slightly more, and get comparable results vs infantry, and vastly better results vs. cav, plus schiltrom.

It's actually really useful info for my personal attempts at making the recruitment better: I can remove town militia type units once the AI gets the next higher spears. Should remove a lot of the low-level unit spam problems the AI currently has, and get some higher tech troops coming out instead.

Then they're not entirely useless. BTW I added spearwall to Billmen for a test and they did much better. I also tested Levy Spearmen with spear wall and they actually killed 40 MK for a heroic victory. Only the general got away (of course!). It seems out of place to give a tier 1 spear unit spear wall though. I'm still trying to figure out how to give England a decent anti cavalry unit without making it too easy. I think I'll just leave things as they are for England and use stakes and charge fodder, unless anyone else has a better idea.

I agree about spearmen and spear wall - they simply don't need it, it would make them overpowered. I'd be most comfortable giving the Billmen (and any other similar units for other factions) spearwall. It's something you could definitely do with weapons like they have, and the Billmen will continue to be weak to missile fire and any non-frontal attack. It seems like it wouldn't be unbalancing.

Another option is to simply give England Armored Sergeants since they already have them in multiplayer... however I think I'm more in favor of making the Billmen do the job. They seem like a natural to fill that roll.

[Shahed]

I've just left England with Bills and Spear militia as they are. It's working great, with the 2h fix and all.

In fact it's working all too well. Bills can't stand a charge (neither can almost anyone else) but once in melee they chop almost anything up.

[Miracle]

Spear militia were winning

Perhaps spear militia have a greater reach, which would have allowed them to attack sooner. In any case I'd agree that TM are utterly useless once you get level 2 barracks.

I'd be most comfortable giving the Billmen (and any other similar units for other factions) spearwall. It's something you could definitely do with weapons like they have

Short polearms like bills and pollaxes aren't quite long enough (in-game) to form an effective spearwall. And if you compare their stats to existing spearwall units, they would be ridiculously overpowered if given the ability.

It could work if you increased their length and reduced their attack stats.

[Foz]

Short polearms like bills and pollaxes aren't quite long enough (in-game) to form an effective spearwall. And if you compare their stats to existing spearwall units, they would be ridiculously overpowered if given the ability.

It could work if you increased their length and reduced their attack stats.

Right. People seem to say that bills did this in real life, so I was trying to say I'd be okay from a design standpoint if they did it in the game. Certainly you can't just give them spear wall and expect everything to come out okay, it would require stat revision like you suggested. In 1.2 I don't have a problem with how they're working honestly, I just figured that out of the suggestions Sinan had made for trying to get England a good anti-cavalry unit, making Bills into spear wall units would make the most sense. As it turns out, he and I both agree that it's not really necessary to help England out in that respect in 1.2

[FactionHeir]

As for town vs spear militia, I don't have any hard testing results, but it seems town militia always lose to spear militia.

My scenario was 4 french town militia (silver armour) vs 4 german rebel spear militia (bronze armour). I outmaneuvered the spears standing on a hill and got a slightly higher position than them on there. They ended up slaughtering my militia anyway 2:1 in 1v1 combat.

[Carl]

Currently Fighting downhill is a massive disadvantage.

I class the issue as a bug as the effect of Light_Spear are supposed to be that the unit gets a defense bonus vs. charging Cav and that it.

The standard Spear Attribute is supposed to give a defense bonus vs. charging Cav and an Attack bonus vs. Cav, plus an attack Penalty vs. infantry.


However whilst the Spear attribute appears to be working correctly, the Light_Spear does not, it still gives the defense bonus vs. Cav and it is still suffering the anti-infantry penalty.

I doubt very much it's a documentation error either as the Light_Spear is worse than the Spear attribute is weak enough to begin with , (and similar enough to the bugged Light_Spear), that theirs no point for it.

IMHO it's a clear Hardcode error.