Romani Starting Position

[Wolfshart]

Is there a thread pointing to the historical justification of the Romani starting cities? I also noticed that the government types of the cities we do get have gov1. For me it would make more sense to only have Roma, Capua and Arretium and maybe Api but I'm not to sure about that because Corfinium wasn't conquered until 268.... and for the gov types to be allied states minus Roma so we can provide a more realistic progression by destroying the type 4s and building up the gov buildings from there at historical dates. Most of Italy's cities ended up as allied states till about 90BC as it is...so it would make sense historically. Would this be a valid addition to EB2 to make Roma a little more historically correct?

[alatar]

You can edit that yourself, just edit the campian, you could make a mni mod for it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well our "Romans" are actually mostly allies at this point but they have been fairly Romanised, so we give them the type 1 because otherwise we'd have the same units in type 1 & 4. This way outside the Italian Peninsula you really feel the bite from the lack of Romanisation.

[Wolfshart]

Well our "Romans" are actually mostly allies at this point but they have been fairly Romanised, so we give them the type 1 because otherwise we'd have the same units in type 1 & 4. This way outside the Italian Peninsula you really feel the bite from the lack of Romanisation.

Why would you have to have the same units in 1 and 4? The Samnites and such? All and all only Roma and later Capua were producing Camillian and later Polybian military units with the rest coming form alae city states such as Samnium and Campania (being major contributors) so that’s the point of my argument. Even Sicily was provincialized and Romanized before southern peninsular Italy's Greek cities.

[Imperator]

I was meaning to ask a quick question about that myself
-There is a character named Scipio Asina at the beginning- is this the same scipio who got the first roman navy captured by Carthaginians? I'm pretty sure it is, and I recall translating some passage that indicated he was named Asina AFTER this failure (so he shouldn't have it in 272) and he got it because of his naval incompetance. So are we sure that's what he should be called? I know its a nit-pick but I kinda specialize in roman history and noticed a tiny error- but who knows, I might be wrong

[Zaknafien]

I was meaning to ask a quick question about that myself
-There is a character named Scipio Asina at the beginning- is this the same scipio who got the first roman navy captured by Carthaginians? I'm pretty sure it is, and I recall translating some passage that indicated he was named Asina AFTER this failure (so he shouldn't have it in 272) and he got it because of his naval incompetance. So are we sure that's what he should be called? I know its a nit-pick but I kinda specialize in roman history and noticed a tiny error- but who knows, I might be wrong

you're right, Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Asina was in fact the first roman admiral to be defeated in battle. The way the current naming system works, as far as I am aware, forces us to include Asina in his name at the beginning. However, with the new Roman ethnicities that are currently in work, he would indeed become Gnaeus Scipio, (Cornelli), and could recieve the cognomen Asina if the proper conditions were met. We'll see.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why would you have to have the same units in 1 and 4? The Samnites and such? All and all only Roma and later Capua were producing Camillian and later Polybian military units with the rest coming form alae city states such as Samnium and Campania (being major contributors) so that’s the point of my argument. Even Sicily was provincialized and Romanized before southern peninsular Italy's Greek cities.

The Allies produced Camillian "style" units, additionally, in order for our reforms to work we have to have it like this. That's why Samnites are in our factional MIC. It's a reationalisation of the Roman system, by this point the allies were producing Romanised units and in any case Southern Italy can't produce Roman units until after the reforms.

In Camillian and Polybian armies your Hastati, Equites etc represent citizens and Allies, the later "Romanised Province" doesn't work in the same way as Italian Latinisation.

Imperator: Our naming system is being overhauled completely in the next build. You may infact be correct, I cannot remember offhand.

[Quilts]

Is there a thread pointing to the historical justification of the Romani starting cities? I also noticed that the government types of the cities we do get have gov1. For me it would make more sense to only have Roma, Capua and Arretium and maybe Api but I'm not to sure about that because Corfinium wasn't conquered until 268.... and for the gov types to be allied states minus Roma so we can provide a more realistic progression by destroying the type 4s and building up the gov buildings from there at historical dates. Most of Italy's cities ended up as allied states till about 90BC as it is...so it would make sense historically. Would this be a valid addition to EB2 to make Roma a little more historically correct?

Agree with Wolfshart on this one, except the territories. Outside of a few cities Rome had virtually complete domination of Italy, as represented, by 272BC. I just wish I could manage to model what Rome actually did and control Tarentum and Regium by the end of 270BC

As to the level of Romanisation, Campania could be heavily Romanised (Type 2 or even Type 1 at a stretch), with others being Lightly Romanised (Type 3)......with Rome Type 1 of course. These 'lesser' levels of government do not exclude the building of Factional MIC's (up to a certain level) so this shouldn't be viewed as a justification for not doing so.

Cheers,

Quilts

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Agree with Wolfshart on this one, except the territories. Outside of a few cities Rome had virtually complete domination of Italy, as represented, by 272BC. I just wish I could manage to model what Rome actually did and control Tarentum and Regium by the end of 270BC

As to the level of Romanisation, Campania could be heavily Romanised (Type 2 or even Type 1 at a stretch), with others being Lightly Romanised (Type 3)......with Rome Type 1 of course. These 'lesser' levels of government do not exclude the building of Factional MIC's (up to a certain level) so this shouldn't be viewed as a justification for not doing so.

Cheers,

Quilts

You are missing the point. At game start you need to think of type 1 as an Italian government because the main function of our government is to regulate what troops can be produced and "Roman" and "Italian" at this point meant roughly the same thing in terms of soldiers.

In order to represent this we give them type 1.

[Wolfshart]

Agree with Wolfshart on this one, except the territories. Outside of a few cities Rome had virtually complete domination of Italy, as represented, by 272BC. I just wish I could manage to model what Rome actually did and control Tarentum and Regium by the end of 270BC

As to the level of Romanisation, Campania could be heavily Romanised (Type 2 or even Type 1 at a stretch), with others being Lightly Romanised (Type 3)......with Rome Type 1 of course. These 'lesser' levels of government do not exclude the building of Factional MIC's (up to a certain level) so this shouldn't be viewed as a justification for not doing so.

Cheers,

Quilts

Hehe I bum rush Tarentum and take it the first year (272) and then rush to Rhegium and take it at (270) so it works for me as those are the correct dates. ;)

I agree however. http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...ly_500_100.jpg
This map shows that as late as about 100BC Rome only directly controlled/colonized small portions of the peninsula while I can see Roma and Capua having type 1 govs I think type 3/4 would be more appropriate for Arretium, Arminium and Arpi. Why can't we start them out at that level and then upgrade from there? I only ever recruit from Capua or Roma anyway so I still don't see what it would hurt.

As far as good admiral Asina goes...he wasn't the first to be defeated as the fleet off Tarentum was as well and that’s what started the Wars with the Greek cities in the south. It does seem weird to have an admiral in control of land forces however. Why was he included?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Asina was appointed an Admiral but so was Aggripa at one point, ancient governments didn't have strict divisions between Army and Navy.

I am going to say this once more:

Technically the political situation warrents Type 4s everywhere outside Roma, for reasons of recruitment that is not appropriate.

[Maeran]

But how different to Rome would you say the Socii (allied, but apparently subservient Italian states) were? The Romans were Italians, so there's not much of a culture clash, which is mainly what the government types are about.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's a good question guys. But our recruitment system (making do the best as we can) does cause some issues.

[Wolfshart]

It's a good question guys. But our recruitment system (making do the best as we can) does cause some issues.

Maybe I don't understand the recruitment system then...what issues does it cause? I feel like I'm being thick or just missing something then....as I understand it local MICs in Italy don't really do a thing for Romani but Capua and Roma can build all the factional troops so I don't see how it would hurt dropping the gov types to 3 or 4 in other cities. Your right that most troop types were similar in the Latin allied cites after a time but I was just talking about the start date of 272 were they still had unique local troops. I guess this stems from me playing by the books and only training troops in Roma and Capua until about the Marian reforms. There I go being thick again. ;)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But how different to Rome would you say the Socii (allied, but apparently subservient Italian states) were? The Romans were Italians, so there's not much of a culture clash, which is mainly what the government types are about.

You get a gold star for using the grey matter. Although there was some culture clash to the South with the non-Latins they all fought the same.