Spartiatai Hoplitai vs. Thorakitai Argyraspidai

[timariot]

Hi,
First of all, congratulations on a stellar job! The amount of work, the diligent research and the painstaking attention to realism and detail in EB put many full feature games to shame. In my personal opinion, EB as a mod is far superior especially in campaign immersion, in sheer enjoyment, re-playability, and uniquely in educational basis than any other released game or fan generated modification. Many thanks to EB Team and all community members striving to produce such a remarkable game!

Last night, in my latest campaign (v.0.81a) as Koinon Hellenon, while besieging Sardis, I encountered two units of Thorakitai Argyraspidai when an Arche Seleukeia stack arrived to relieve the siege. I had two Spartiatai Hoplitai units with silver chevrons in addition to my Commander’s unit. I maneuvered my units to set up my battle-line on a steep mountainous terrain and with two units of Epilektoi Hoplitai in the center and the Spartan’s in the wings (two on the left wing and the commander’s unit in the right wing.) The Seleucid host engaged my phalanxes with his phalanxes and his Thorakitai Argyraspidai engaged the Spartans. I was surprised that the Thorakitai Argyraspidai was able to push the Spartans backwards (uphill!!) despite fighting on a steep incline. Soon enough the Spartans were reduced to 20s with only 4-5 casualties to the Thorakitai Argyraspidai. Furthermore, the Commander’s unit was down to 13 while having only inflicted 3 casualties to the attacker. Looking at the trading style unit card most excellently created by Arkatreides, there doesn’t seem to be enough of a distinction to account for the such drastic battlefield performance. The lethality of the Thorakitai Argyraspidai Spear is 0.125 versus 0.13 of the Spartiatai Hoplitai, and the Mass is 1.3 to 1.35 of Spartans with respective Defense values of 31 to 28. Was my experience a fluke or I am misreading the unit stats? Also, note that the Spartans were defending on high ground with a steep incline in their favor. Thank you in advance.

[vonsch]

How did the respetive commanders compare in abilities? I suspect they matter a lot more in EB than vanilla, based on some things I'm seeing. Morale is 2/3s the battle, and these commanders are all about morale.

Of course, a lot of experience on the units doesn't hurt either, but I find significant differences with morale shifts.

[Watchman]

The Terminatorai Argyraspidai may also have made use of their nasty, nasty AP solifera javelins mind you. The AI knows the trick of using precursor javelins during melee too.

[timariot]

Thanks for the replies.

vonsch - My Commander had 4 Stars and his adversary was either a 3 or 4 Star General. I am not sure about the experience or armor/weapon improvements of the AS troops but mine had the usual Blacksmith improvement and 2 and 3 silver chevrons.

Watchman - I believe both Thorakitai Argyraspidai units used at least two salvos of Solifera javelins on the approach and before the charge. I couldn't tell from the animations if they were using them during the subsequent melee.

P.S. After finishing up the Spartans they had an equally easy time with the Epilektoi Hoplitai as well but since they engaged the phalanxes from their respective flanks, I am not surprised as much.

[Watchman]

Huh. Guess the TA are just Bad Enough Dudes To Save The Basileus then.

[antisocialmunky]

Those must have been some high chevron bastards. Usually Spartans can take a decent amount down.

Just to scare you: the Thorakitai Argyrasipidai aren't the best armoured infantry in the game. The Vasci Assault infantry are, according to descriptions, they gave the Seleucids and Parthians the inspiration and technology to make tank men.

I've always wondered. What exactly is the melee defense value? Is it Dfense skill + k*(Armour Value) + k*(Shield)?

[Fondor_Yards]

It's armour value+defensive skill value+shield value. If they are using an ap weapon it's the same, but (.5*armour value)+defensive skill value+shield value.

[mcantu]

timariot,

what was your battle difficulty level?

[timariot]

VH/M level. I tried to re-create it in a custom battle but couldn't replicate the same results. Spartans gave a better account of themselves. I am wondering if my General had some Morale reducing traits/ancillaries that I hadn't noticed.

[servusa]

I can't see how morale could affect the rate at which you kill the enemy/are killed, until one side breaks and the other runs them down.

[bovi]

I believe command stars give a small bonus to attack rating for nearby troops.