A Makedonian Tactical "Fork in the Road"

[Owen the Mighty]

Note: To those who have opened this thread, this is about campaign direction advice, and is not an AAR, although it will lead to one.

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So there I was, jumping with joy with the destruction of the Koinon Hellon, and the crippling of the Epirote forces. My lengthy campaign against my Hellenic neighbours took longer than I expected, and now I controlled all of the Greek city states and isles. With my Makedonian forces in celebration, I, the Supreme Commander of the Makedonians, looked to my distant enemies to the west, east, north and south. Where would I lead my loyal armies next?

With the expanding Roman Republic in the west, I pondered on the thought of destroying the growing giant in his sleep, and ransacking the rich lands of the Italian pennisula. A tactical possiblity, I suppose.....

In the north, the lands were known by the Makedonian traders as desolate and poor, and the Makedonian generals saw the northern lands of practically no tactical value. Hmm, unlikely I should lead my forces there.....

The east was in the hands of the eastern-nomads, and it was an ill-defended portal to the farthest eastern reaches of Alexander's once-great empire. Reclaiming this land would both serve the Makedonian economy and morale...

And to the south....a vast expanse of ocean, but also a gateway to the eastern empires. Above all, the southern isles would serve my Makedonian forces as a "stepping-stone" into the heart of my rivals. An essential part of a future Italian or African invasion.....

.....but where to concentrate my forces first? That is the question...
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So my predicament is, in other words, in which direction should I expand my empire in? The Epirotes are nearly finished, and are left with only one city on the northern coast of the Adriatic, but I cannot reach them....but no worry, they are being delt with by other forces...

This is my very first successful EB campaign so far, so tactical advice for Imperial Makedonian Expansion would be greatly appreciated!

[P.S. my future goal is to destroy the Seleucids, since I was tormented by them in Vanilla ....if that changes which direction I should go in]

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I'm now in the year 224 BC with the Maks and have "choosen" to go east. Or, better, I was choosen.

After defeating mainland KH and Epeiros, and taking some thraikian villages to the north, I thougt that Pergamon would be a nice addition to my growing empire. As soon as I held Pergamon in my hands, AS betrayed me, skipped the alliance, and laid siege to Pergamon and Byzantion. So I was a bit shocked. Pergamon resisted the aggressors, but Byzantion couldn't. Well, I retook it two turns later, but unfortunately it was a massacre also of MY troops.

That was in 251 BC, and since then 27 years of constant war have passed. I made my way throug Asia Minor, was betrayed by Pontos who choose to side with their former enemy (they didn't survive long after their betrayal), invaded Armenia (preemptive strike - they allied with AS), and am now sticked in Syria and Armenia, because theese cities are so damn prone to rebellion... Also I gave the Getai little gifts for about 15 years (since they decided to ally with AS too), but just half an hour ago they betrayed me, too. So I have to get a levy army (armies are so expensive and I have already three in the east) of phalangitai deuteroi.

I recommend you strongly to take the thraikian lands in the north, they give really good soldiers, especially Thraikioi Prodromoi. And better don't head for Asia Minor too soon...

[Veris]

If you want a successful example look at my Macedonian campaign in the A.I expansion thread (2 posts). I had more or less everyone in the west declare war on me in succession so I did a combination of conquering Italy+Dacia while holding off the Seleucids, then taking Africa and Gaul, and finally mopping up in Spain and winning in Germany. Then blitzed the rather strong Seleucids into oblivion. My advice is don't try to attack the Seleucids unless you are bent on attacking them till their death, or else they will shove so many units at you you'll never finish the campaign without auto_win or a few free years.

There are several mines in Dacia I believe. Those definitely are not bad cities to take at all; the Black Sea areas have decent trade also but rather strong rebels generally. The Successors, Rome, and Carthage will be your toughest opponents. The barbarian militarys are pretty easy to defeat with standard Macedonian hammer and anvil tactics so expansion north will be fairly easy.

[Towwb]

Yeah, definitely make sure you have most of the Thracian mines. IIRC, there should also be horse archers in the regional MICs up there, which are always fun. After that, I'd move east. Rome typically doesn't look your way until much later, after Gaul, Iberia, and Carthage are under wraps. Meanwhile, the Ptolemaioi/AS war is probably still going on, Asia Minor is fractured, and you can take advantage of the chaos to pick up some nice cities. If the war is ended and Asia Minor is consolidated, then the winner is either looking east, weakening AM, or west, towards you, and you don't want to be stuck fighting a two-front war in the Balkans; better to face them head-on.

[Morte66]

Don't go into Asia Minor until you are ready for a fight to the death with the biggest faction in the game.

I'd go north. Get the provinces where you can build mines, which are close. Go at least as far as Sarmiszegethusa which has mines ready built, and knock over the Getae in passing. Then you've got a big buffer of Eleutherioi north and west.

Then if you feel brave and ready to tackle horse archers, go for Olbia in Skythia which gets you Skythian HAs to recruit (much cheaper than Thracian) and a nice port. If you manage that, you may as well get Chersonesos and Pantikapaion which are also rich coastal towns and good source of HAs. If you go this way, try to be at peace with Pontos and whoever owns Kotais so you can trade with them across sthe Black Sea. Try for an alliance with the Sauromatae (who keep deals better than most), they're hard for you to beat and their lands aren't worth having.

Otherwise/afterwards, go for Italy. Get Mediolanum early and fortify the passes to keep the Gauls from surprising you, then work south and knock over Rome before they reform their military and become dangerous.

Then see where the Seleucids are before deciding what to do next.

[Owen the Mighty]

Oh, I've take some Thracian lands (yes, those Thracian Peltasts are just too good to leave behind... ) .....but Dacian and other northern lands have mines? Nevermind, then, I'll have to take those in a minor invasion soon enough.....(I always thought those lands were poor and useless, but quite the contrary!)

...so a frontal assault on those silvery bastards that are the Seleucids is not the greatest of tactical moves, as I understand? Hmmm....maybe I'll build my forces up for awhile, and start with an invasion of Sicily, then onto either Italy or North Africa....hmmm....indeed....

Thanks for all the help, guys! If you have any other adivce, feel free to post!

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

...so a frontal assault on those silvery bastards that are the Seleucids is not the greatest of tactical moves, as I understand? Hmmm....maybe I'll build my forces up for awhile, and start with an invasion of Sicily, then onto either Italy or North Africa....hmmm....indeed....

A frontal assault is a good idea, because at the beginning, Asia Minor is split up in many independent territories, and Pontos, and the Seleuks are overall concerned with beating up the Ptollies. But once you've reached the line Sinope - Amaseia - Mazaka - Tarsos, it will get more difficult, because you get really close to the Seleukid core. They won't stop throwing full stacks on you, and they can get their armies their very fast, and you will get your armies there much more slowly, and reinforcements will lag. It would be the best idea to bring the reinforcements at the same time as the original army - then you will have the reinforcements as soon as you need them.

So, please go and kill the dwarfs for me! (And then the grey hordes too)

[Owen the Mighty]

Update on my campaign: I (and others) have just made some territorial gains, and I thought you guys would like to know how I have progressed so you can advise my decisions:

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-The Epirotes were finished off by the Romans at Segestica. Yay !

-I broke my alliance with the Getai and invaded their lands. I have Naissos, Serdike and Singidunum under my control, and I am currently laying seige to Buridava. These Getians are alot stronger than I initially thought....my main northern army (16 units) has repelled numerous stacks of these northmen...

-I am preparing to assault Sicily, which is currently under Carthaginian control.........I have about 13 units ready near Thermon. I have also constructed a fairly large fleet for the invasion.

-With Roman military presence increasing on the north eastern coast of the Adriatic, I am beginning to worry that they are going to attack my homeland provinces. My strong armies are either stationed elsewhere, or are preparing to set sail. Also, my garrison in Epidamnos is quite weak. I won't have enough money (or time) to build a substantial force to defend against a Roman assault, since my other armies are significantly draining my treasury....

-I have put together a small expeditionary force (7 units) of mainly locals and basic infantry, and I have stationed them in Ambrakia to counter a Roman assault (if there is one) by attacking Taras across the sea. They were going to join the Sicilian invasion, but after recent events, their motive has changed.

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...So what do ya think? If the Romans are preparing to attack, they will move into Dalmatia with their legions, and if they have numerical superiority (say, 3 full stacks or so), I'll call off the Sicilian invasion, and put my main invasion force with my small expeditionary force, destroy the legions, then I will invade Italy.

Either way, it is going to be fun! Do you guys think I have made the right tactical choices? Whichever way you see my moves as, please post with comments.

Thanks again!

[Morte66]

If you go at the Seleucids I'd aim for Antiocheia, one stop past Tarsos (though Tarsos is also good). It's one of their big barracks towns, so it will deny them elite troops, and it's a superb strategic choke point. A fort over the river northeast of town protects asia minor, and anybody releiveing that fort does so from a river crossing. The south road is relatively easy to cover also, though they should be busy with the Ptolies in that direction. It's a bunker. And it's a big rich city with plenty of revenue too.

I'd want to enter Asia Minor with a great big field army plus a contingent of reserves and another of prebuilt garrison troops. Then roll in faster than they can react and don't pause for breath. Ignore Eleutheroi, ingnore Pontos if you can, just get all the Seleucids out. Study the eastern passes carefully and place forts -- it's not unknown for a dozen pike phalanxes to just wander out of the mountains towards Mazaka or thereabouts.

You may not appreciate just how humungous the Seleucids are until you see it. [That's AI seleucids with the extra money from the VH setting, player Seleucids are a bit cash-strapped.]


p.s. Man, I just sacked Selukeia. I've been trying to do that with various factions for weeks. And my faction leader killed their faction leader in a cavalry charge at one of the breaches. It feels so good...

[Owen the Mighty]

sorry for the double post, but I just read your recent post, Centurio, and don't worry, the Seleucids are in for it after I'm done with my Mediterrannean neighbours!!!!! I'm planning on attacking them (in the future, of course) from the north and south.....muhahahah!

[Conqueror]

Owen: under your situation I'd definetly cancel the plans to invade Sicily. You'll be drawn into a war on many fronts, make enemies that would be better kept friendly/neutral for now (Karthadast), as well as risk your invasion army being caught between two foes. This would be particularly devastating if your fleet is defeated, leaving your army stuck on the island without reinforcements.

Instead, I suggest that you go for an alliance with Karthadast and direct your invasion army on Italy. It's better to attack the Romans before they attack you. Sack some of their cities and be prepared to withdraw if they bring too many troops to bear. Use the money gained from this raiding to raise a new army in Epirote lands (hire mercs if you're in a hurry) and use that one to threaten Romans in the north. If you're lucky, the Karthaginians will attack southern Italy and further weaken the Romans. You can even try to give them some of the cities you sacked; if they accept the gifts then they'll soon be at war with Romans for sure.

[antisocialmunky]

You don't want to be near CArthage post 240 since they'll have elite units and you DEFINATELY don't want to be in Sicily being attacked by the Punics if the Romans decide to invade. They are allied to each other from the start so I'd avoid taht. You might just want to go into remission, build up your economy and forces and then decide who you want to kill.

[Owen the Mighty]

Update: Alot hasn't changed in these last few turns in my campaign, but here's an update anyways:

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-The Roman legions are growing stronger every day! There are now 3 full legions perpetually stationed in Dalmatia! Also, reinforcement legions (1/3 of full a legion) are constantly popping in and out of Dalmatia, so I imagine they have reinforcements at the borders of Dalmatia ready for a counter-attack if I attack them first.....

-I have boosted that small expeditionary force to 10 units, and I have moved my original Sicilian Invasion Force out of the Thermon countryside, to Ambrakia with my other small army. My forces are gathering for an epic battle......

-My army in the north is still seiging Buridava, but that army is also repelling constant attacks from small Getian warbands. This is truly annoying me, as I have to keep fighting these small battles with my main force.....grrrrrr.....

-Also, the smaller armies that were reinforcing my main northern army (about 15 units in total in three armies = 5 unit armies, in other words) are DEAD! They were destroyed by a fairly large Getian force that struck back during the first months of my seige at Buridava....but they were dealt with by my main northern force. What pisses me off is that my six-star general who commanded an elite force of Makedonian veterans was killed in this counter-attack.....I was saving him for the Roman assault...

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The only concern I have is my northern army, as it's reinforcements are now non-existant, and a retreat to the homeland might prove to be alot more difficult without them covering their backs....grrrrr....

Again, post with advice! This campaign is basically writting itself for an AAR.....coming soon!

[Conqueror]

Tough times ahead. You should think carefully if keeping Buridava is worth the garrison that it'll require. If the Getai have more cities left then they will lay siege on Buridava after you've captured it. Perhaps butchering the town and burning all the buildings for some quick money, then retreating would be a better choise? You could then take the northern army to fight the Romans, or you could use it to sack more Getic towns to further weaken them.

In any case, your primary objective now should be to dispose of the immediate Roman threat quickly. It's a very bad thing to have the war take place on your own lands, especially if it means your cities being put under siege. It's much better, if you can, to go on the offensive and devastate the lands of your enemy. Even if you can't hold on to the territory, you can at least gain some money from looting and prevent the Romans from recruiting their best units by destroying their MICs.

[Owen the Mighty]

Yes, I believe the northern campaign will have to be called off for time being, Conqueror, as my northern army would even the odds against the Romans on Dalmatia. The only problem is retreating from the north and not being attacked by the Getians, who are using multiple small armies against my larger army. As of my last turn of play, my northern army has been reduced from it's original 16 units to 12 units.....grrrrr!

I'll post again in awhile with a game update. Thanks for the help, Conqueror!