lorica segmentata

[maks]

dear all,

how come there are no units with this kind of protection in EB?

all other mods have them !?

best regards

[LorDBulA]

Large scale use of this type of armour started after game end. (EB covers periods from 272BC to 14 AD )

[maks]

ok i see !! its a pitty that time is not extended then !! would make the mod more complete !!

[hoom]

Should extend further still because Varangian guards are awesome & EB won't be complete without them

Or sans sarcasm:
The Lorica Segmenta was only starting to come in about the time that the game ends ie its something that was around during Emperial Rome.
EB is about the period which witnessed the rise of Republican Rome & the Parthians, rise & fall of Baktria and Pontus, Germanic expansion and the decline of the Helenistic states Carthage and Celtic societies. (unless you are playing as one of the latter in which case its about the rise of that faction & decline of the others...)

[Foot]

ok i see !! its a pitty that time is not extended then !! would make the mod more complete !!

Is there an historical reason for doing so, or do you just wish to have the iconic and aesthetically pleasing Lorica Segmentata in game? Don't worry about it, Hamata and Squamata are fair better armours (I love scale in particular - yummy, yummy eastern armour!).

Foot

[Puupertti Ruma]

This should be in the FAQ. It certainly is a frequently asked question.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Lorica Segmentata first comes into use, i.e. first shoulder pieces found, 9BC, it doesn't turn up again until 9AD and all in all it's pretty shoddy armour, though good protection against blunt trauma and arrows.

[The Errant]

This should be in the FAQ. It certainly is a frequently asked question.

I agree with Puupertti. Place the answer on the FAQ (first post and in very large letters). Or better yet make a separate sticky on the main forum titled:

"The reason Lorica Segmentata was, is and will be exluded from EB"

The only question asked more frequently is about the roman military reforms and that has thankfully already been included in the FAQ.

[Plebian#10]

I watched a show on the History channel that depicted the toughness of this type of armor. This armor type was typically worn over top of a layer of chain mail and padding. A lot of time was spent on how the armor was fashioned and assembled but at the end they did a bunch of field tests firing a period ballista at the armor from about 50 feet away and although a human would most likely be knocked down and hurt the armor actually prevented a piercing type wound quite effectively. I would guess that they fired approximately 5 bolts of different sizes and point types and none of them actually pierced the padding. It was a real eye opener on the effectiveness of lorica segmentata against a piercing type wound but I wonder how effective it would be against a slashing or crushing type of attack. Any thoughts?

[-Praetor-]

I watched a show on the History channel that depicted the toughness of this type of armor. This armor type was typically worn over top of a layer of chain mail and padding. A lot of time was spent on how the armor was fashioned and assembled but at the end they did a bunch of field tests firing a period ballista at the armor from about 50 feet away and although a human would most likely be knocked down and hurt the armor actually prevented a piercing type wound quite effectively. I would guess that they fired approximately 5 bolts of different sizes and point types and none of them actually pierced the padding. It was a real eye opener on the effectiveness of lorica segmentata against a piercing type wound but I wonder how effective it would be against a slashing or crushing type of attack. Any thoughts?

So you`re saying that the Segmentata was worn over a Hamata coat (along with padding)??

Hummm, interesting...

BTW, it`s a good idea to incluide the Segmentata issue on the F.A.Q. Thus, instead of writing endless posts answering the question, we can just send them to FAQ.

Cheers!!!

[Watchman]

Segmentata-type laminate over mail sounds more like something you'd find on a late Parthian or Sassanid cataphract...

That said, armour of overlapping lames is pretty good judging by evidence. That type of Persian limb defense the Greeks called cheir in any case appears to have been regarded as a perfectly sufficient by its lonesome without any shield involved, even in leather-based versions... And this in a region where kopis-type choppers and axes were very popular sidearms. The Romans also used a derivative for their front-rankers during Trajan's Dacian wars to limit amputations from those nasty curvy swords, particularly the big bad falx.

It was also good enough to be included in late Medieval full plate armour around some joints, and the knee and upper leg defenses eventually turned into a single large "sleeve" of lames attached to the lower edge of the breastplate.

That's something like two thousand years of more-or-less continuous use in one place or other, topped by being accepted as part of some of the best body armour ever designed. I'd say that suggests it was a pretty darn solid design principle overall.

[Zaknafien]

I could see a possibility in EB II of the augustan cohors having a guy in segmentata as part of the unit, but only a very few of them to give some extra unique-ness. Maybe after an armor upgrade or two also.

[Kugutsu]

Surely wearing hamata and segmentata and padding would make movement quite difficult... Discounting the weight, the freedom of movement in the joints would be severely limited.
I think if you were shot by a ballista bolt, you probably wouldnt get up and walk away. Even if it cant pierce through, the force would mimic the effect of a crushing weapon, buckling the armour, breaking bones and damaging organs due to shock. The mail would offer little additional protection to that sort of damage. Not to mention if you dent armour over the torso, you cant breathe until you undent it or get it off. Which you probably cant do easily once its been damaged...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A friend of mine told me he had seen Segmentata chest plates with holes punched in them by spears and a ballista bolt is a definate, hell javalins would have a good chance of compromising that type of armour.

The biggest problem with Segmentata is the wear and tear issue, though new evidence suggests it was tinned, which would take care of the rust, but not the wearing on the leather or fittings.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I would love to see the segmentata, but when it's unhistorical, it's unhistorical.

Did the Romans use lorica segmentata in Teutoburg forest?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I love debates about segmented armor.
I think they pop up on a predictable basis.

I would say no to Segmentata in Teutoburg (c AD9).
One of the only big conflict that had lots of Segmentata would be the invasion of Dacia.

[alatar]

A balista bolt hitting you in the chest would put you out of the battle, if the armour stands you'll be thrown backwards and but pn the gound.
Also, you'd be luckly if the bolt hit your torso, not your head or legs.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I would love to see the segmentata, but when it's unhistorical, it's unhistorical.

Did the Romans use lorica segmentata in Teutoburg forest?

A few shoulder plates have been found, no torso plates. It is possible that the shoulder plater were applied to mail and the laminated curiass came later.

[Intranetusa]

If the game only goes up to 14 AD, wouldn't the Roman secondary expansion be unhistorical as well? Rome didn't reach its max territorial expansion until the 2nd century CE.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Secondary Roman expansion is supposed to represent the limits of Roman possible control, and you can fight after that date for as long as you like.

[Boyar Son]

This should be in the FAQ. It certainly is a frequently asked question.

Omg!!!!!!!!!!

Plz just put this in the FAQ before the EB team goes Attila on us!!!!!

[hoom]

Side point/gripe, I find it odd that the Romans have no segmenta but those pesky Eleutheroi generals all seem to have nicked some from somewhere

[Watchman]

That's crappy vanilla skins for ya.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Side point/gripe, I find it odd that the Romans have no segmenta but those pesky Eleutheroi generals all seem to have nicked some from somewhere

The vanilla placeholder rebel general.
It is hard to decide what the replacement general should look like. Since only one skin/model can be used for the rebel general, what would be appropriate for them? A general that might look good in Europe, would look silly if that general was leading Numidians in Africa or elephants in India.

[Geoffrey S]

Would it be possible to make the rebel general invisible/transparent?

[Fondor_Yards]

I'd give him a normal sword, cavalry greaves and arm guards, chainmail, and one of those round iron helms with cheekguards that almost all upper tier cavalry have*thracian helm?*. Should fit in most places.

[hoom]

Well, anything that doesn't have segmenta shoulder pads would be a marked improvement

[Urnamma]

Segmentata has only a short use chronology, and is also restricted to a rather small part of the Roman army from what we can tell. It was, in all estimation, a rather bad form of protection. Easily susceptible to missile fire, blunt force trauma, etc, and is notoriously difficult to fabricate (you can't just order sheet metal in the ancient world).

[Caratacos]

Would it be possible to make the rebel general invisible/transparent?

That would make things look quite comical when he's the last one left and your soldiers are hacking away at nothing

[Geoffrey S]

Ah. That's what happens if I don't think things through.