lorica segmentata

[Watchman]

It was, in all estimation, a rather bad form of protection.

I wonder about that. Far as I can tell laminate seems to have been of the higher end of "overlapping bits" type armours, both in terms of technological requirements and protective effect. Laminate-structure cuirasses were among the "transitional" Medieval designs before solid breastplates became the norm, and for certain reasons were sometimes used instead of solid plate in very sophisticated and high-end harnesses later on as well. Similarly they were some of the most advanced forms of body armours the Japanese devised before the Shogunate era pretty much deep-froze all their military developement.
Certainly if you can get good results with bronze scale, it is difficult to see how large overlapping horizontal lames of iron or, better yet, steel would not do at least as well if not better. Leather and bronze types in any case seem to have been popular enough as limb defenses in Late Roman times.

'Course, the Romans may well have had some "teething problems" typical of complicated and somewhat experimental designs; the issues with the bronze hinges and such are testament enough of there having been some bugs to work out.

[antisocialmunky]

Wasn't it time consuming to put on and not worn with a padded undercoat to absorb shock?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually, there's good evidence that Segmentata protected you pretty well from true blunt trauma, i.e. no broken bones or internal injuries, it has been found all over the Empire, but in rather small quantities. That said, it contained a great deal of sheet iron which the Romans would probably have been keen on re-forging rather than chucking away, like their Iron helms.

The major drawbacks are manufacure, fitting, maintainance, reliability and the fact that in a battle the chances of your armour being servicable at the end are low.

It also rusts rather badly, but it does polish up rather nicely.

A friend of mine suggested it was used by artillery crews because it protects the body and shoulders just where a loose ballista arm would strike.

Another mosibility is that it was used by fast moving assault troops, because of the excellant weight-protection ratio.

[mAIOR]

Segmentata has only a short use chronology, and is also restricted to a rather small part of the Roman army from what we can tell. It was, in all estimation, a rather bad form of protection. Easily susceptible to missile fire, blunt force trauma, etc, and is notoriously difficult to fabricate (you can't just order sheet metal in the ancient world).

Give me your quotes on this one please. From what I understand, Lorica segmentata was in use till early 3rd century. Also, in trajans column most of the soldiers aree represented in lorica segmentata. and being more susceptible to damage than mail is untrue. The overlaping layers would give tremendous resisence to damage and reduced weight. Maybe for blunt trauma it's true as I can see some logic in it but missile... ummm that just doesn't seem right.

Cheers...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Give me your quotes on this one please. From what I understand, Lorica segmentata was in use till early 3rd century. Also, in trajans column most of the soldiers aree represented in lorica segmentata. and being more susceptible to damage than mail is untrue. The overlaping layers would give tremendous resisence to damage and reduced weight. Maybe for blunt trauma it's true as I can see some logic in it but missile... ummm that just doesn't seem right.

Cheers...

Lorica Segmentata was in use from roughly 9AD to 200AD, compare that to mail, circa 350AD-1500AD or the Greek curiass, 1600BC-500AD+. Greaves, 1600BC-1800AD, or so.

By contrast Lorica Segmentata has a life of 250 years at the absolute outside and rather than being improved it is if anything downgraded.

As far as missile weapons, specifically arrows and javalins, the plates are roughly 1mm thick on the chest and even overlapping the arrow hits one plate at one point. LS give a missile weapon a flat surface to hit, with mail the arrow has to break multiple rings in order to pierce the armour, which it quite often manage, in fairness.

To be fair mail is not much better, worse in some cases. Against blunt trauma Segmentata comes out on top but only because the armour absorbs the blow by deforming and that only works once in one place. Added to which there is a real danger of suffocation if the armour is compressed.


I would dissagree with Urnamma on it's effectiveness, it was effective, and light. Though most modern tests use either high quality iron, which is soft, or mild steel, which flexes. The reality is that Roman metalgury was fairly inconsistant, and often poor, particually in the post-Republican period. Despite it's effectiveness it is less comfortable, more cumbersome, more prone to random failure and generally more inconvenient. It also takes three minutes to put on vs 20 seconds for mail.

We're talking about an armour which could litterally break and become useless just before battle. In hot climate it will litterally rot off your body without a leather jerkin between your tunic and armour, it also suffers from heat transfer problems....

The list goes on, and on.

At the end of the day it's like any hi-tech military kit, great in barracks, horrible in the field.

[L.C.Cinna]

Give me your quotes on this one please. From what I understand, Lorica segmentata was in use till early 3rd century. Also, in trajans column most of the soldiers aree represented in lorica segmentata. and being more susceptible to damage than mail is untrue. The overlaping layers would give tremendous resisence to damage and reduced weight. Maybe for blunt trauma it's true as I can see some logic in it but missile... ummm that just doesn't seem right.

Cheers...

It seems that mail was always dominant. The segmentata appears for about 200 to 250 years in which mail was still the main armour of the troops. Trajan's column was built to be visible from greater distances so the main reason for legionaries in segmentata is probably just to distinguish them from the auxilia.

Take a look at contemporary monuments like the Adamklissi metopes showing Traian's soldiers on campaign in Dacia (and probably built by the troops themselves), it shows nearly all legionaries in mail and it is much more to be trusted imho as it depicts all other equipment much better and corresponds with the finds we have.

[CaesarAugustus]

The vanilla placeholder rebel general.
It is hard to decide what the replacement general should look like. Since only one skin/model can be used for the rebel general, what would be appropriate for them? A general that might look good in Europe, would look silly if that general was leading Numidians in Africa or elephants in India.

Perhaps a Greek-looking general would be the best choice. A Greek rebel/mercenary warlord would fit in in most parts of the Eb map, with the exception of germany, northern Gaul, Britain and Western Iberia. All other regions it is quite plausible that the general might have some form of greek armour. More plausible than Lorica Segmentata, anyway.

[mAIOR]

The reason Legions had mail armor isbecause of the mail armor endurance not quite it's effectiveness. Also, Lorica segmentata allowed a lot of flexibility even more than the Lorica Hamata as it was lighter. The roman metal work you talk, is inconsistent way after the lorica segmentata was abandoned. Also, if you talk about chain, I'll bring plate (the principle of lorica is plate armor) armor wich was the last tipe of armor and the most efective one. Also, armor in the late roman empire was ditched (not only segmentata but hamata as well being replaced by lighter tipes of mail or no armor at all) due to the increasing number of barbarians in the army and the change of tactics. This gave Roman infantry very small endurance while fighting heavy cavalry.
I believe in the end, Lorica Segmentata was eventually ditched because it's complexity and time consuming production. In order to support this, let me just mention the fact that the romans introduced several modifications to the armor in order to simplify it until they finaly ditched it. And Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla, if you have three overlaping plates of 1mm (the ingenuity in the LS is this particular thing) gives 3mm protection. Gothic armor had 2mm. And, it was heavier. And missiles didnt work so well against Gothic armor. At least anything short of an arbalest or a mongolian bow with boadkin arrows. and still it might just not punch it.
Anyway, just my 2cents and sorry for the long post.


Cheers...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The reason Legions had mail armor isbecause of the mail armor endurance not quite it's effectiveness. Also, Lorica segmentata allowed a lot of flexibility even more than the Lorica Hamata as it was lighter.

From experience I can tell you it restricts your arm movement and your ability to flex in back and waist.

The roman metal work you talk, is inconsistent way after the lorica segmentata was abandoned.

No, the fall in quality begins with the rise of Augustus, the Pompeii pattern Gladii are that shape partly to compensate for the lower quality of the iron, the shape of the blade increases durability.

Also, if you talk about chain, I'll bring plate (the principle of lorica is plate armor) armor wich was the last tipe of armor and the most efective one.

Mail was used without interuption for almost 2,000 years. Lorica Segmentata, while technically plate, is no relation to later forms of plate used by European horsemen.

Also, armor in the late roman empire was ditched (not only segmentata but hamata as well being replaced by lighter tipes of mail or no armor at all) due to the increasing number of barbarians in the army and the change of tactics.

Armour was never entirely abandoned, however the reason for the reduction in use was the collapse of the Roman industrial complex, Late Imperial infantry are far more static than their forebears, with units staying in the same posting for centuries. This was a big part of the problem which led to the collapse of the Western Empire, the inability to move troops quickly.

I believe in the end, Lorica Segmentata was eventually ditched because it's complexity and time consuming production. In order to support this, let me just mention the fact that the romans introduced several modifications to the armor in order to simplify it until they finaly ditched it.

You refer to the graduation from Corbridge A to B and the later Newstead pattern? You are correct, however these modifications also reduced effectiveness and flexability whilst increasing weight. They were partly to increase speed of repairs (replacing rivits with split pins) but the exibit and general degradation in quality as well. It is interesting to note that Lorica Segmentata comes into use as the Legions adopt fixed positions and dissapears as they once again become mobile.

And Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla, if you have three overlaping plates of 1mm (the ingenuity in the LS is this particular thing) gives 3mm protection. Gothic armor had 2mm. And, it was heavier. And missiles didnt work so well against Gothic armor. At least anything short of an arbalest or a mongolian bow with boadkin arrows. and still it might just not punch it.
Anyway, just my 2cents and sorry for the long post.


Cheers...

At no point do three layers overlap, in fact two layers barely overlap, if it were otherwise the armour would lose its remaining flexability.

I believe javalins will go through Gothic plate, as will longbow arrows at 20 paces and the longbow is not the most powerful of bows. In any case Gothic plate is steel Lorica Segmentata is iron

[NeoSpartan]

Oh come on guys not again, not again its like the 3rd time this S*T comes up since I've been here.

[Zaknafien]

hehe. (someone shouts) but what about lorica musculata?

[antisocialmunky]

Linothorax all the way!

[Plebian#10]

Correction! I incorrectly stated that chain was worn under the lorrica segmentata but after going to the local library and aquiring some books on period armor I could find no reference to hammata being worn in conjunction with lorrica segmentata. Therefore I either misunderstood the what the author of that show was saying or it was wrong. I have tried to find that history channel episode but so far no luck. I apologize to all for making what appears to be an incorrect statement! I will continue to research this information.

[Watchman]

At no point do three layers overlap, in fact two layers barely overlap, if it were otherwise the armour would lose its remaining flexability.

Oh ? What's there to keep them from simply sliding over one another (to a certain degree) as was the standard for laminated armour from the start to the finish ? Not that a hip-lenght cuirass like that needs to be particularly flexible anyway.

I believe javalins will go through Gothic plate, as will longbow arrows at 20 paces and the longbow is not the most powerful of bows. In any case Gothic plate is steel Lorica Segmentata is iron

"Gothic" plate would mean high-end Late Medieval full plate, I assume. Let's just say that by that point men-at-arms had abandoned shields as unnecessary baggage and heavy steel-stave crossbows were around the only things that could penetrate even lower-quality plate at any real distance with any real degree of reliability. Longbows, one of the catalysts for the developement of the fully articulated plate, were totally insufficient except at virtually point-blank ranges (with the obvious implications to the continued well-being of the archers) which is doubtless one reason they started falling by the wayside, although composite bows seem to still have been reasonably effective. Or at least those of the Ottomans seem to have accounted for quite a few fully armoured men in galley fights.

[edyzmedieval]

This is one of the hottest threads about EB. Why no Lorica Segmentata?

Gotta ask it too.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

[Watchman]

"'Cause it's so next century."

[antisocialmunky]

Oh ? What's there to keep them from simply sliding over one another (to a certain degree) as was the standard for laminated armour from the start to the finish ? Not that a hip-lenght cuirass like that needs to be particularly flexible anyway.

Having manufactured a worn something of the like, I can say from experience that the plates restrict your torso movement in very annoying ways. If you look at how a human bends they bend along the the length of the torso. However, even with the flexibility of a curass built like that, it is still fairly restrictive. They slide but not by much.

It does however allow for good all around protection that is form-fitting, not bulky, and easy to make with decent flexibility(turning and bending a little). Its definately better than a giant plate on your chest.

However, like you said, flexibility isn't a particularly large issue. Kevlar armour with ceramic plate doesn't alow the user to bend much either. It hasn't been a huge issue in battle throughout history.

[mAIOR]

Well, I believe there's alot of misconception about steel in the Classical era. Most people say that steel was invented in the 18th century however this is untrue. In the 18th century people started to produce Steel in industrial quantities. Steel is a junction of iron and carbon so, not very hard to discover.
Now steel is believed to be around long before that. I don't know if Roman armor or weapons were steel I never read anything regarding that subject. But, finelly tempered iron can be tough as hell. And, as Watchman pointed, Longbow is way over rated. The best bow around is the composite bow eastern style. And, plate armor was always at advantage regarding chain. You said that from experience mail is more flexible. Can you assure us that the LS shirt you used was built on Roman standards? For you to have a Clue, a 16th century fully incased warrior had less weight on his shoulders than a British WWI soldier with full gear. So, they had plenty mobility as you can see. Now, LS in general I saw some schematics in a book I own and only 2 layers in fact overlap exept in the shoulders where you can have as much as 4 and the unshielded arm would be a much valued target as it would be the most xposed part of the body.


Cheers...

[Watchman]

Europeans came up with a better furnace around the 1300s AD that, unlike the earlier ones, allowed the production of reasonably homogenous steel in reasonable qualities; plate armour would not have been viable otherwise. The earlier bloomeries just produced small amounts of steel as a side effect, and getting it out of the chunks of iron was a trick by itself. The edges of weapons and so on could be "built up" of such small bits and pieces, but making armour out of them was somewhat hopeless.

Now, there are of course other ways to temper iron into steel, and those were widely enough known and used. The trouble was that it was very difficult to control the processes closely enough to result in homogenous results in larger pieces (one reason why long swords were so much more expensive than short ones), and indeed even after the developement of tempered steel plate armour laminated animé cuirasses were sometimes used simply because it was by far easier to keep the metallurgy even across a single lame than an entire breastplate...

Mail is neat stuff, and its flexibility (comparable to that of heavy cloth AFAIK) kept it useful for joint protection and such even after as-such more efficient forms of protection (like solid steel plate) became available. Its downsides include a somewhat time-consuming manufacturing process, a certain inherent vulnerability to pointy stuff that can get right into the links, fairly hefty weight, and the blunt fact that by itself a shirt or hauberk will hang from the shoulders and as such burden them with more or less its entire weight. This can be partially mitigated by transferring some of the weight to the hips with a belt, but was nonetheless a bit of an insoluble problem. Stiffer forms of armour could be easier "wrapped" to the relevant body parts, spreading the load more evenly, or simply had better weight/protection ratios (like solid steel plate again - there were good reasons why that became the military norm as soon as economic considerations allowed), but as usual it was ultimately always a question of what facet you wished to emphasize and at what cost.

[mAIOR]

And not to forget, mail can be easilly torn and shred by a long weapon (espetially pole weapons). And I meant those processes of tempering iron (not sure you can call tempering into steel as steel was achieved previously when melting and forming the iron)... Anyhow, LS in my view was superior in terms of protection to LH and all the facts stated here lead to that opinion.


Cheers...

[hoom]

I dunno what the EB guys say but its my understanding that Carthage had furnaces of a type capable of producing quite significant amounts of at least high-quality Iron & with indication that it was pretty much good steel that was coming out of them.

Certainly the Romans were very careful to capture & put to work the metalsmiths of Carthago Nova.

[Watchman]

And I meant those processes of tempering iron (not sure you can call tempering into steel as steel was achieved previously when melting and forming the iron)...

Per definition steel is iron with carbon mixed in. There's no shortage of techniques to "inject" carbon into iron, or at least the surface layers anyway.

I dunno what the EB guys say but its my understanding that Carthage had furnaces of a type capable of producing quite significant amounts of at least high-quality Iron & with indication that it was pretty much good steel that was coming out of them.

You'll have to wait for the EB guys or other more knowledgeable folks to supply the details, but aren't you confusing the issue with the baseline high quality of Iberian iron ore here ?

[AngryAngelDD]

Segmentata has only a short use chronology, and is also restricted to a rather small part of the Roman army from what we can tell. It was, in all estimation, a rather bad form of protection. Easily susceptible to missile fire, blunt force trauma, etc, and is notoriously difficult to fabricate (you can't just order sheet metal in the ancient world).

ehm....as far as i have read, your are only partially right.

a.
Certainly segmentata is not the best from protection. It´s protects only from hips upwards, certainly is not as flexible as mail and needs much more care to prevent from rusting.

b.
The protection from different weapons is debatable, given the fact that a roman soldier, especially a legionary, should have been hit by an enemies weapon rarely IF he can fight in his own manner => Shield covering from knee upwards to the chin.

c.
But i would disagree that it is used by a "rather small" part of the roman army.
Right, the mail armour was used in much larger amount than Segmentata.
But this takes into account that Auxiliaries only wears mail.
Leaving that fact out, i would suggest that at least 50% of the legionary infantry wore Segmentata.
This type of armour came into "regular" use in first half of 1st century AD and was in use at around 250AD...so ca. 200 years of use.

d.
As far as i´m informed, the Segmentata was introduced JUST BECAUSE it was pretty easy and fast to fabricate, though it perhaps wasn´t cheaper than mail.
You are right that sheet metal was uncommon in ancient time, because it has to be hammered (rolling was unknown).
but iron sheet metal was easier to hammer (if you know the right procedure) than cutting 30.000-40.000 iron/bronze rings. Assembly of the rings takes a lot of time also.
Some authors speak of 180h for the completion of a simple, short auxiliary mail shirt. Completing of a segmentata armour takes only around 60h.
additionally authors assume that a ancient segmentata weighs 4,5kg compared to 5,5kg+ for simple mail shirts.
the time factor outranks every other difficulty, as the increasing losses in battle had to be replaced in short time.

so all in all Segmentata armour was certainly lighter in weight, easier and faster to produce but might have less protection and needs more care from the soldier.
it makes it easier for the roman state to field the heavy infantry with an adequate level of protection and equipment.

[Cata_Tank_Guy#3]

Large scale use of this type of armour started after game end. (EB covers periods from 272BC to 14 AD )

Also, it was mainly worn by Praetorians and the Heavy Legions.

[mucky305]

I skinned all my guys with modern body armor. Nothing quite says killing like a camo vest. You know they found evidence that the Romans had Interceptor body armor. It's true....I read it in the National Enquirer so it must be true. JK

http://world6.monstersgame.co.uk/?ac=vid&vid=114017506

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Watchman, you may or may not be right about javalins, someone told me they'd been hurling them at steel car doors and punching holes. As regards steel, the Romans are generally not considered to have crossed the threshold between carbonised iron and steel. My point about the layers was that there are never three layers overlapping in the same place. In fact you can sometimes see the legionaries tunic through the gaps at the back. The shoulders are different because they represent a second layer of armouyr over the main body in the same way manner as the doubling on mail does.

mAJOR, first off, break up your posts. You're giving me eye strain. Now, Lorica Segmentata is lighter than mail but weight is not everything. Mail has greater flexability and by and large one size fits all, though fitted is better. What do you mean "how do I know it was built on Roman standards"? if anything it was probably lighter and better made. Most serios reconstructions of period armour of any age tend to be lighter and over engineered.

Regarding the longbow I will only say it was the AK-47 of it's age and I think Watchamn would probably agree with me. Though obviously it was less "pick up and use."

Lorica Segmentata has been said to weigh "as little as 5.5kg" mail is generally quite a bit heavier. Additionally you are wrong to say mail can be "easily torn" Lorica Segmentata has lots of nice gaps and edges to hook a falx onto.

AngryAngelDD:

a. Pretty much true.

b. Best point made so far, armour is secondary.

c. 200 vs 2000+ years and half the Legions is only 25% of the total Roman army, if that. Auxilleries usually made up at least half the Roman military strength and they were full time soldiers.

d. It's not easier, it's faster but it requires a higher level of skill (Gallic/Germanic smiths) and the end result is a product which requires higher maintainance. It's also worth pointing out that a. thousands of mail shirts were languishing in Imperial Armouries when LS was introduced and b. Roman losses were rarely high in the Imperial period, except when the Romans lost.

Cata, there was never a "heavy" Legion, maybe heavy cohorts within a Legion.

Ultimately though none of this is relevant to EB, it's not in because it was only just invented and almost no one was using it.

[AngryAngelDD]

ok you are right
the auxiliaries are at least 50% of the roman trained manpower.

what i had in mind is, that in a typical battle the Legions had the real job to do.
(yes i know there were battles, where legionaries even didn´t need to fight)

the legions shifted through the border regions as necessary while the auxiliar troops often were at the same place for much more years than a legion.

also many auxiliar troops don´t fight "permanently"....the legions do, because they are relocated often to the conflict areas (at least with vexillations)

therefore the Segmentata armour see pretty much battle time.
i dare to say, that certainly there were auxiliary mail shirts which never had seen a real battle.
the other way round i would say that hardly a segmentata can be found which was free from battle traces.




and you are right, that this is not relevant for EB, but a good discussion is also nice to see (and it helps some people to learn something about history )

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The deployment of Auxilliaries and Legionaries varied. Certainly in the Flavian period in Britain we have concrete evidence that the Legions were in permenant bases while the Auxilleries were moved around quite a lot. After Constantine the situation reversed but in terms of EB and immidately after I would say the opposite of your statement was true. Legionary bases were static and designed to control key areas, many Legionaries did not see combat for years at a time. By contrast Auxilleries were posted in border regions and constantly sent out on patrol and to deal with local risings.

Remember that the Roman Legionaries were valued far more than their Auxillery bretheren and as such were only employed for major offensives or when the Auxilleries couldn't cut it.

[Watchman]

Watchman, you may or may not be right about javalins, someone told me they'd been hurling them at steel car doors and punching holes.

Good plate had a habit of deflecting couched lances in full-tilt heavy cavalry clashes, which is yet another reason shields were ditched. Javelins could as well not bother trying.

In fact you can sometimes see the legionaries tunic through the gaps at the back.

That'd no longer be segmentata, but one coming apart. Badly.

Mail has greater flexability and by and large one size fits all, though fitted is better.

Flexibility isn't terrinly important in hip-lenght corselets anyway - you can do damn cartwheels wearing full plate, and I can quarantee that breastplate doesn't flex one bit. Most kinds of heavier body armours worn over the millenia barely flexed at all, and worked perfectly fine regardless - where the cloth-like suppleness of mail becomes useful is in the joints.

Regarding the longbow I will only say it was the AK-47 of it's age and I think Watchamn would probably agree with me.

Probably wouldn't. Besides the katana that one has to be the most over-hyped premodern military weapon - and most of the enthusiasts are quite unaware a bow not much short of the Welsh longbow was a required part of a militiaman's kit (atop a shield, spear, sword or axe and some armour) in medieval Scandinavia.

Lorica Segmentata has been said to weigh "as little as 5.5kg" mail is generally quite a bit heavier. Additionally you are wrong to say mail can be "easily torn" Lorica Segmentata has lots of nice gaps and edges to hook a falx onto.

I understand mail shirts of coverage comparable to the segmentata corselet tend to weigh in at the 10-15 kg range, depending on specific design details. One does recall the lorica hamata is very commonly described as being rather heavy anyway.

Personally I rather fail to perceive where there would be a true eak point in the segmentata, save perhaps for the closure. Iron lames overlapping downwards don't seem to offer a very good "bite" for most weapons by what I know of it, and the shoulders for their part are reinforced against blows from above.