*Possibly* New Mongol Strategy

[Agent Smith]

Ok, I'm not quite sure if someone has already devised this strategy before or used it elsewhere, but I tried it last night and it worked wondfully in a battle I felt was pretty even overall. I call it "flank overloading."

First, the forces:

MONGOLS (I could be wrong about the exact numbers, but this is roughly what they had):
1 General
4 Mongol Archers
4 Mongol Infantry
2 Heavy Lancers
3 Light Lancers
4 Horse Archers

RUSSIANS:
1 General
1 Druzhina
2 Kazaks
2 Horse Archer Mercenaries
1 Catapult
5 Peasant Archers
8 Spearmen

I had numerical superiority, but I was attacking and they were uphill at a decent angle. They started in a rather standard formation with archers up front, Mongol infantry behind, followed by cavalry. Their horse archers were slplit in two far on each flank.

Obviously, I tried to use the catapult to whittle away at them for a while, but it isn't necessary. I placed my archers in loose formation up front with my line of spearmen directly behind. However, I placed all four horse archers and my other cav on my right flank.

The key is keeping the horse archers busy on the one flank and opening up a flanking front for your other cav. Have the horse archers immediately engage the enemy horse archers on the overloaded flank (in loose formation to prevent casualties). Usually, the enemy horse archers will be outnumbered 2 to 1 on that flank and take a beating. At the same time, have the heavy cavalry march quickly to the flank of the main enemy line. By the time they reach the enemy horse archer position, the horse archers will probably fall back in skirmish mode while trying to hit the closer heavy cav. Keep the pressure on with your own horse archers.

While that is happening, I had my archer and spear lines march quickly forward together. They will take some arrow fire from the exposed flank from the other horse archers, but the loose formation will keep casualties down while the spearmen directly behind will prevent charges from the flank. Once they stopped within good arrow range, have them stop and begin firing and send your spearmen full speed at the enemy line. Once they are getting close to meeting their targets, wheel the archers to the exposed flank to concentrate on the other horse archers and to avoid firing into the melee. Charge the heavy cav to hit the flank when the spearmen hit.

The result was devastating. Half of the enemy horse archers were kept busy and out of the battle, while the main force was crushed and the other horse archers were kept at bay by my peasant archers. I had around 100 casualties, and the enemy army completely routed. I think that isn't bad, even for fighting uphill against the enemy.

Thoughts?

[Brutal DLX]

The result was devastating. Half of the enemy horse archers were kept busy and out of the battle, while the main force was crushed and the other horse archers were kept at bay by my peasant archers. I had around 100 casualties, and the enemy army completely routed. I think that isn't bad, even for fighting uphill against the enemy.

Thoughts?

Not bad, although it should only work as long as the AI stays passive. If they had charged your main line with their heavy cav while being supported by footarchers, then you'd been doing the running.
The Mongols can do really quick cav attacks, which surprised me the first time it happened since i was getting used to the generally slow and more passive AI.

[PutCashIn]

I agree, the Mongol formation with thier horse archers split on each wing seems to collapse if you place all your horse archers on one flank.

Allowing you to annihilate one half of the Mongols horse archers with minimal losses to your horse archers.

Then, of course, you now out horse archer the Mongols, beating them at thier own game.

I wonder how effective JavCav is against against the Mongols in general, I dont think I've played an 'Invade the holy land' campaign with Portugal, Spain or the Moors.

[todorp]

I destroy the Mongosl by all horse archers armies. Why horse, because only they can catch up with them on the strategic and the battle map. The casulties ratio is about 1:1, which for the Mongol uber armies is good.

[Bobo]

Seems to me you were also quite lucky: the Mongols were passive and on lower ground. That should have compensated for their +6 experience. Under different circumstances, their archers should be able to mow down your peasant archers and spearmen. Then use the lancers to clean up what's left.
I'm not really familiar with the other Russian units, though.

[Agent Smith]

Seems to me you were also quite lucky: the Mongols were passive and on lower ground. That should have compensated for their +6 experience. Under different circumstances, their archers should be able to mow down your peasant archers and spearmen. Then use the lancers to clean up what's left.
I'm not really familiar with the other Russian units, though.

The Mongols were the ones on higher ground, not me.

The trick is that my spear charge neutralized their foot archers ability to fire for a long period, and their early firing was concentrated on my loosely formed peasant archers. You will take some casualties, but you want to force a melee where their foot archers really can't fire at all. Not to mention that their cav can't get a good charge if there is a huge melee up front between my spear and their infantry, which is better anyway. It stalls them and makes them vulnerable to my heavy cav coming in the flank.

I think that even if they weren't passive this strategy still would have worked. The key is knocking out half of their horse archers from the battle (not necessarily destroying them, but just keeping them busy). With the heavy cav marching to the enemy horse archer position with your own firing at the enemy, the enemy horse archers will fall back in skirmish mode and start placing themselves well behind the enemy line. So, the main battle is then focused in the middle while your own HA's duel 2 on 1 behind the one flank.

[Agent Smith]

I wonder how effective JavCav is against against the Mongols in general, I dont think I've played an 'Invade the holy land' campaign with Portugal, Spain or the Moors.

I think this would also work. The real reason for the HA's is not necessarily to destroy the enemy HA's outright, but to get them to begin skirmishing and moving backward and expose the flank. Your own HA's/Jav cav is initially just providing cover for your heavy cav to move in, and the heavy cav getting close is what causes the enemy to begin skirmishing back behind the main line. Then, you follow them with your own missile cav.

So long as your jav cav is in loose formation, it doesn't matter really that they have to be closer to fire. Just so they can skirmish long enough to keep the HA's busy. In fact, once you get the enemy HA's occupied behind the lines with your jav cav, you could probably do the catabarian (sp) circle to conserve ammo and keep them busy longer.

[HoreTore]

Whenever I stumble against the mongols, it ALWAYS happens when I've destroyed every horse archer and most foot archers, and charge everything at the heavy cav line, which stays stationary. Sometimes, my entire army just runs away just when I hit them...

Ah well, nothing kills a mongol like a Janissary.

[TevashSzat]

My strat is to have multiple cav armies. When the battle starts, I target every HA there with at least 2 cav units to ensure that I win. Since the HA will skirmish away, footarchers will not be alot of problem and my large numbers of cav and by having them stay in groups protects them against mongol heavy cav. Once the mongol's superiority in mobility is taken care of, I just surround and charge the enemy