Latest update on 1.2 patch from Sega/CA

[crpcarrot]

i just wish they had this attitude before they relased games and annouced relase dates. but i guess its the industry norm now

[Daveybaby]

Unfortunately most developers dont have the luxury of keeping working on a game until its perfect. I guess they could spend a year testing the game (which is probably how long it would take to find most of the bugs with a small team) but then CA would have probably gone bust by now if they'd taken that route so you wouldnt even have an M2TW to be bitching about, ever.

Alternatively you release a playable game on time with a few significant bugs (but not show stopping IMO - if the shield bug is a 'game killer' how come it took so long for people to even notice it) and a slew of minor ones, some of which you will possibly know about before shipping (release day patches are pretty much a given these days) and most of which you dont - but will find out about very soon because 1000's of people playing a game in lots of different ways than you envisaged is going to turn up LOTS of bugs you would never have thought to look for in a million years of testing.

So, which is it people?
Scenario 1 : CA goes bust because they arent selling any games because theyre not allowed to release them until theyre perfect. So no more TW games, ever.
Scenario 2 : CA release slightly buggy games and fix most of the bugs after a few months of patching.

Unless anyone can come up with another scenario, that is. Note: scenario must work in the real world, not a fantasy one where companies dont need money to stay in business.

Yes, i guess in a sense we're paying to be beta testers. If that makes you really really angry, i suggest you have a read of the newspapers once in a while and try to get a sense of perspective (to paraphrase Bill Hicks... albeit slightly more politely).

Rant over.

[Whacker]

So, which is it people?
Scenario 1 : CA goes bust because they arent selling any games because theyre not allowed to release them until theyre perfect. So no more TW games, ever.
Scenario 2 : CA release slightly buggy games and fix most of the bugs after a few months of patching.

The 2nd option is considered standard practice right now, for better or worse. The problem is the current game we have is in terrible shape, hell it makes even Bethesda look like a good software publisher. The shield bug, unit cohesion nonsense, bad pathing, and passive AI are all very serious, game breaking bugs. "Game breaking" doesn't mean CTD, it also means making gameplay thoroughly aggravating, unenjoyable, and a crap shot at best. Of course, one can never expect the Official CA Apologist Crew© or the hardcore fanboys to understand this.

Unless anyone can come up with another scenario, that is. Note: scenario must work in the real world, not a fantasy one where companies dont need money to stay in business.

Yes, i guess in a sense we're paying to be beta testers. If that makes you really really angry, i suggest you have a read of the newspapers once in a while and try to get a sense of perspective (to paraphrase Bill Hicks... albeit slightly more politely).

Oh please. There's a very fine black and white line between being a paying to be on an official beta and being forced into being what amounts to be a beta tester by the publisher. Seeing how this game was never announced or marketed as a "Open Beta" it becomes pretty obvious which category this is. Had I known this was where the game was going to be 4 full months after it's release I would not have dropped my hard earned cash on it. Oh well, we all know how the saying goes. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." This was the last title I buy from CA at launch, if at all.

[fenir]

Hmmmm after some thought, i would have to agree. CA needs to make the game in UK. For reasons we won't get into.


AUSSIE BASHING......woot.... some one has to.

In New Zealand Lamb price is about $7.00 a kilogram, when the wallabies come to play the all blacks, it goes up to $35.00 an hour.

Whats an Aussie with a BMW....a Lebo.

Whats an Aussie with a Mercedes......a really good theif.


Come sapi.....put them dukes up




fenir

[sapi]

fenir, you really are tempting me here, and if you weren't australian I'd be doing nasty things to you about now

[Quickening]

Since this topic is now for all patch 1.2 discussion I'll mention this. If the Pope asks you to cease hostilities you can no longer continue to hold an enemy under siege. You will be excommunicated. As I just found out the hard way

Still, thats a good change.

[Carl]

@Fenir & Sapi: .

[FactionHeir]

Since this topic is now for all patch 1.2 discussion I'll mention this. If the Pope asks you to cease hostilities you can no longer continue to hold an enemy under siege. You will be excommunicated. As I just found out the hard way

Still, thats a good change.

Was like that in 1.1 already. :p

Any news on the other two tests I was asking about? I mean you are bound to have killed at least 1 enemy army so far right? (for the display thing)

As for the experience bonus you got the buildings yet? :D

[fenir]

fenir, you really are tempting me here, and if you weren't australian I'd be doing nasty things to you about now

Oh? Aus...Austr.....Australiand....Aus ..tra..li.... oh bugger...........GO THE ALLBLACKS! (got to love me?)

oooohh ...do the nasty ...do the nasty


fenir............

[fenir]

Woot 300 posts........

Oh, only took me almost 6 years.

[Puzz3D]

A patch requiring this much effort can't be a good approach to developing a computer program. It gets to a point where doing it right in the first place is a more efficient process. Troubleshooting a bug can take more time than the time it would have taken to write working code in the first place. I thought the RTW v1.2 patch, which took 3 months and almost half of the whole development team and addressed over 100 problems, went beyond this point, and now the M2TW v1.2 appears to be an even bigger effort. It's not good business, and the company's credibility as a capable developer suffers.

[Odin]

Unfortunately most developers dont have the luxury of keeping working on a game until its perfect. I guess they could spend a year testing the game (which is probably how long it would take to find most of the bugs with a small team) but then CA would have probably gone bust by now if they'd taken that route so you wouldnt even have an M2TW to be bitching about, ever.

Alternatively you release a playable game on time with a few significant bugs (but not show stopping IMO - if the shield bug is a 'game killer' how come it took so long for people to even notice it) and a slew of minor ones, some of which you will possibly know about before shipping (release day patches are pretty much a given these days) and most of which you dont - but will find out about very soon because 1000's of people playing a game in lots of different ways than you envisaged is going to turn up LOTS of bugs you would never have thought to look for in a million years of testing.

So, which is it people?
Scenario 1 : CA goes bust because they arent selling any games because theyre not allowed to release them until theyre perfect. So no more TW games, ever.
Scenario 2 : CA release slightly buggy games and fix most of the bugs after a few months of patching.

Unless anyone can come up with another scenario, that is. Note: scenario must work in the real world, not a fantasy one where companies dont need money to stay in business.

Yes, i guess in a sense we're paying to be beta testers. If that makes you really really angry, i suggest you have a read of the newspapers once in a while and try to get a sense of perspective (to paraphrase Bill Hicks... albeit slightly more politely).

Rant over.

Fair enough, very well presented. since i have been an advocate of the other side of the argument I feel it fair to acknowledge your position. You make sound arguments and decent rationals based on common sense, logic, and the reality of the industry.

Perspective though is a funny concept and one that shouldnt be suggested lightly. As a consumer you pay for a product and you have a certain expectation of what you are buying. If it dosent meet with your expectations and you continue to buy it, the process continues on because you are enableing it to do so.

I dont suppose to know how companies can make "perfect games" I do know that games are produced in the state they are now mainly because the public buys them as is.

Not only that but we have vibrant modding commuties and forums where users post links to user made fixes to the game almost like a badge of honor. And on top of that we have a leaked 1.2 patch that had (by thier own admission) more bugs that caused the game to crash(which were discovered at the last hour before release, assuming we give them the maximum benefit of the doubt).

And whats the general concensus on the 1.2 situation? I have read a lot of data on this board and others and for the most part everyone is happy to have the files leaked to work on, happy that CA has pulled it back until fixed, and content to wait until it is ready to go (thats the majority opinion thus far).

And that my friend is the problem. An entire culture has been born, and is flourishing around games that are produced incomplete at the start. Maybe my point of view is a little off center, but I have yet to come across another industry that produces a product where a culture thrives on its inperfections, in almost glee.

It as if they are doing us some great service by correcting issues with thier product, and not only that should someone suggest that they should have had it done prior, it becomes

CA would have probably gone bust by now if they'd taken that route so you wouldnt even have an M2TW to be bitching about, ever.

.

Maybe my expectations are to high, but really why should I expect more from them, we have an army of willing consumers happy to support the current norm.

[Quickening]

Meh, the game shouldn't have been released in the state it was and we shouldn't still be putting up with the game in this state.

But it doesn't matter what we say or think at all and it wouldn't matter if a handful of us voted with our wallet. Mainly because when the next Total War game comes out the magazines will review it and say "OMFG best game EVA!!!!!!!!!!! *masturbates*" and then a million people will read that and buy the game unaware that it is buggy as hell.
So they've got their money and a few dissenting fans who actually know and care about the bugs won't make any difference. Sad but true.

[Odin]

Meh, the game shouldn't have been released in the state it was and we shouldn't still be putting up with the game in this state.

But it doesn't matter what we say or think at all and it wouldn't matter if a handful of us voted with our wallet. Mainly because when the next Total War game comes out the magazines will review it and say "OMFG best game EVA!!!!!!!!!!! *masturbates*" and then a million people will read that and buy the game unaware that it is buggy as hell.
So they've got their money and a few dissenting fans who actually know and care about the bugs won't make any difference. Sad but true.

The magazines are part of the gaming culture, they have everything to gain by giving games great ratings.

the only persons who can effect a change in the gaming culture is the consumer, companies that are for profit always gear there business to make the customer happy.

[Barry Fitzgerald]

It has to be said the length of time that this patch has taken..and its vast size surely indicates how poor the original code really is.

In a way I feel sorry for CA..since release the game has come under heavy fire for snazzy looks..and not a lot of time spent on the real meat..aka getting the AI, and game working correctly. Things went from bad to worse with further delays..and well withdrawn patch 1.2,

There is nothing new to all this...its a sad fact of life that companies release unfinished games a lot more nowadays..CA are not alone in this. Some more than others..but shockingly some games dont have a lot of issues.

I really hope CA can recover from all this..the damage done to their reputation has been vast. It would be a shame to suffer for this in the long run. I know many players will now be much more sceptical about buying a CA game in the future..lessons will have to be learnt here..and big ones.

If you do a job for someone..whatever that is...paint a house..fix a car..make a cabinet...you should do the best job you can. Quality counts for more than quantity. Do a bodge job and you do yourself no favours at all. Your rep suffers..and cowboys land you get marked with.

Software whilst not that extreme is the same. Nobody expects perfection. But we really deserve better than this.

I hope CA can take all this in and put extra effort into ensuring that future releases are at least acceptable in quality. Maybe part of the problem is lack of competition....that would help to give them a wake up call.

[diotavelli]

I think that there is a lack of true perspective from many of CA's critics right now. Ten or fifteen years ago (pre-WWW), there were no forums for discussions of the relative merits of computer games other than magazines and groups of friends. If game was released with a "killer bug", the general gaming community would know about it but minor bugs didn't tend to get much air. Games that were imperfect tended to be generally recognised as such but it wasn't considered too big a deal if they were still enjoyable.

Online forums have changed all this. The Guild is a perfect example. There may be a few hardcore modders who would have found all the bugs in M2TW even were they operating in splendid isolation but their number would have been small. The vast majority of us would have played the game, enjoyed it or not and become fans or not on that basis.

The lists of bugs and the regular threads of outraged indignation merely serve to heighten awareness of problems with the game out of all proportion to the true situation. Purists who think that a game is unplayable if it doesn't work exactly as planned may hate M2TW but a lot of people aren't bothered.

Do you know how many copies of M2TW have been shifted? And do you know how many of those with a copy frequent these boards? This forum lists 19,560 members, not all of whom will be current and not all of whom will own the game. Far more than 20,000 people own this game. The vast majority of them will play it unaware of any problems. They may notice that some things don't happen as they expect or that some units behave/perform unexpectedly but they'll live with it or bin the game. No big deal.

The idea that CA's reputation is damaged to a "vast" extent is laughable. That may be the case with the hardcore who really know their stuff, buy loads of games each year and spends ten of hours playing each week but with the average punter (2-3 games a year, average of 5 or so hours played each week), it's not. Average punters seriously outnumber the hardcore but they pay just as much per unit.

I'm not a CA "apologist" or "fanboy" but I do work in IT. I know that CA are working in conjunction with SEGA. I know that SEGA are hugely successful, not because they appeal to the hardcore community but because they sell products in their millions to the mainstream "leisure" market.

CA will be feeling bad that the original game was as bugged as it has turned out to be but, like most of us, it probably took them a while to realise the true extent. They will wish they'd got the patches out sooner but they'll know they have a certain level of resource and a finite capacity.

The game works. Not perfectly but it works. If it doesn't work well enough for you, let it go. Find other things to do with your time. For most of us, a delay to the patch of one week or one month is a little frustrating but really no big deal.

We're talking about a computer game here. A fun but trivial bit of kit designed to help you waste a few hours of downtime. It's not like someone sold you a car with faulty brakes or an life insurance policy that didn't cover you properly. If that were the case, some of the rants I've read recently would be justified.

As it is, withdraw your hard-earned cash from CA's future sales pipeline, if you like. Boycott SEGA. Write letters to your MP, Senator or village elder. Rant furiously to the likeminded about how the whole world's gone to hell in a handcart because shields in M2TW are bugged and the pathfinding doesn't always work.

But please realise that employees of CA probably don't care as much as you do. Sure, they prefer to have happy campers in consumerville but, for the most part, they do. Some people are pissed off but they're few in number. Confronted by all the real issues of daily life (relationships, illness, stress, etc.), passive AI may not seem such a big deal.

[Odin]

We're talking about a computer game here. A fun but trivial bit of kit designed to help you waste a few hours of downtime. It's not like someone sold you a car with faulty brakes or an life insurance policy that didn't cover you properly. If that were the case, some of the rants I've read recently would be justified.

I agree with your overall sentiment that in the larger scope of life this game is really trivial, and that the gripes here are mostly from hardcore players, on that I concede. However comments like the one about the car brakes are very telling and apart of the larger problem.

Like it or not your rationalizing the fact that the game was infact released with problems. By your own example, what would you do if you had recieved the car like that? List the problem on a bug forum and link your fix in your signature?

As it is, withdraw your hard-earned cash from CA's future sales pipeline, if you like. Boycott SEGA. Write letters to your MP, Senator or village elder. Rant furiously to the likeminded about how the whole world's gone to hell in a handcart because shields in M2TW are bugged and the pathfinding doesn't always work.

Sarcasm lessens your position considerably. No one has suggested that this has a major impact on the world as a whole, but since this is a fan site for the game critisism here is appropriate. Minimalizing the valid arguments on an appropriate site do little to validate your own position, IMHO.

But please realise that employees of CA probably don't care as much as you do.

We realise this.

Sure, they prefer to have happy campers in consumerville but, for the most part, they do. Some people are pissed off but they're few in number. Confronted by all the real issues of daily life (relationships, illness, stress, etc.), passive AI may not seem such a big deal.

again no one is suggesting that this is the end of the world. This is a fansite of the totalwar series and an appropriate place to discuss the total war games and thier impact on the forum members who chose to participate.

Continual comparissons to life events of larger scopes underlines the weakness of your argument. Of course this dosent compare to

(relationships, illness, stress, etc.)

but the Org isnt dedicated to those realities now is it?

[Durallan]

I agree with your overall sentiment that in the larger scope of life this game is really trivial, and that the gripes here are mostly from hardcore players, on that I concede. However comments like the one about the car brakes are very telling and apart of the larger problem.

Like it or not your rationalizing the fact that the game was infact released with problems. By your own example, what would you do if you had recieved the car like that? List the problem on a bug forum and link your fix in your signature?





Sarcasm lessens your position considerably. No one has suggested that this has a major impact on the world as a whole, but since this is a fan site for the game critisism here is appropriate. Minimalizing the valid arguments on an appropriate site do little to validate your own position, IMHO.



We realise this.



again no one is suggesting that this is the end of the world. This is a fansite of the totalwar series and an appropriate place to discuss the total war games and thier impact on the forum members who chose to participate.

Continual comparissons to life events of larger scopes underlines the weakness of your argument. Of course this dosent compare to but the Org isnt dedicated to those realities now is it?

This thread is more about the actual patch and its upcomingness than to continually complain about the state the game was released in yadda yadda yadda, if someone could make a topic like that and then sticky so everyone can complain rant and other things in it, it would be appreciated.

and yes I know everyone has a right to be angry and annoyed but I'm more interested in news of the patch, and people keep complaining about the patch, the delays and the bugginess of the game which this post isn't for, no I'm not trying to self moderate but Its just wearing a little thin, we know yer annoyed and you have eeeeevery right in the world to be annoyed at the state of the game, but you don't need to keep telling us. Which is why a topic where you can all get aggro to your hearts content would be great, because it would unclutter this post and then I could actually read for news on the update (no offense to anyone ok? :))

[Odin]

This thread is more about the actual patch and its upcomingness than to continually complain about the state the game was released in yadda yadda yadda, if someone could make a topic like that and then sticky so everyone can complain rant and other things in it, it would be appreciated.

Since you quoted me I will repsond in kind.

There is a PM feature and reporting feature you can use Durallan to ask for this more formally. The mods will reply to you, and if they deem the post innappropriate will correct it in thier own manner via PM or a posted remark as to how to proceed further, which smart forum members will abide.

You also have the option of not reading posts by simply moving to the next one that is relevant to your desire. Because you percieve a thread to be "more about" something dosent mean that the other posts arent relevant or valid.

Basically, no one is forcing you to read these posts Durallan, you choose to.

[diotavelli]

Odin,

Thanks for your reply. A couple of points though:

1. Yes, I'm rationalising the fact that the game was released with problems. I'm doing so because a) it's only a game and b) most new products in the world are released imperfect. I know this because I've project-managed a few releases myself and I've bought new houses and cars before.

2. If I bought a car with faulty brakes, I'd take it back to the showroom and demand it were fixed or replaced because it would kill me otherwise. That would be a serious problem (IMO, at least). However, when I bought a new house that had some problems, I fixed them myself and got on with my life. I could have called the builders/developers and demanded the work be done and paid for me but I realised that would take longer and was unnecessary. The same applies with the game: provide your own fix or wait for the official one - it's no big deal.

3. I realise this is a fan site and that therefore it is an appropriate context for criticism - I never suggested otherwise. My point was that people seemed to lack perspective. Sure it's fair to criticise the game but to leap to conclusions about the way a company is run and about their attitude to their customers on the flimsiest of evidence is daft.

4. Apologies if my sarcasm upset you. I fail to see how it "lessens [my] position considerably" - my points are either valid or not but you're entitled to you opinion. I didn't attempt to minimalise (arguably) valid arguments but simply to demonstrate that the seriousness of those arguments were not of the magnitude some people seem to believe, IMO.

5. Who is the "we" who realise that CA don't care as much as you do? A royal 'we' or can you speak for all 19,500+ members of this forum?

6. You try to suggest that my argument is weak because I compare M2TW bug issues with major, real life issues - but that is my point, that is my argument. As I said above, I do not for one second believe that The Guild is not an appropriate place for discussions on this issue. I believe, however, that those discussions would be more efficacious if undertaken with greater perspective.

7. The .Org is not dedicated to CA's business practices or policy. Other people (who happen to share your overalll POV) have commented on these and you haven't seen the need to censure them. You have commented on the culture in which computer games are released these days and the role of gaming magazines; again, the .Org is not dedicated these either? That being the case, why should I not bring in other non-TW issues to the discussion? Because you disagree with my position?

My point remains the same: many people now feel the game is so bugged it should not have been released; I believe many of these people only feel this way because they've made aware of bugs they'd never have discovered themselves. Discussions of bugs and CA's response to them have been inclined to the hysterical. I suggested therefore that a little perspective would be useful.

We have no way of knowing if CA believed the game was bugged when they released it (so far as I'm aware - forgive me if I'm wrong) and no way of knowing if they could have released effective patches sooner than they did. Arguments to the contrary are plain wrong. Leaping from such arguments to condemnations of CA, the whole games industry or anything else are therefore without foundation.

[Durallan]

biiig post

hear hear! what I've been trying to say all along. The best thing to do probably is either get a petition or write to CA employees, in a nice but firm way that if the next game is as buggy or has some major problems with it, you won't be buying it. Considering that CA employees actually post on forums which happens once in a blue moon on EA forums or other faceless publishing entities, they may take more note of what you say, as long as you aren't insulting. Continuing to whine/rant/complain may make you feel better, but CA isn't constantly watching this thread, you need to make a thread, get lusted to tell them to read the thread or ask someone else to do that. If CA says theyre hands are tied then you will have to barge into the SEGA boardroom and demand that developers get more time to make bugless games.

[DesertEagle]

ITen or fifteen years ago (pre-WWW), there were no forums for discussions of the relative merits of computer games other than magazines and groups of friends. If game was released with a "killer bug", the general gaming community would know about it but minor bugs didn't tend to get much air. Games that were imperfect tended to be generally recognised as such but it wasn't considered too big a deal if they were still enjoyable.

True, however also true is the fact that a company's reputation was built on the code they released, so there were no months later patches fixing the game. If a game was buggy, minor major or anything, then that company would not be able to say, "here we'll fix this."

As someone said, it is the consumers acceptance of this method of doing business, letting a company issue a buggy game and then fixing it later, that allows them to follow this business model.

If customers "made" the companies live and die by the code that came packaged in the box, the companies would either start fixing games before releasing them, or go out of business, or the consumers would accept minor issues.

All that said, I knew it would not be a perfect release and chose to invest in the game and enjoy it while letting it be polished along the way, instead of not buying it.

Honestly, after RTW, anyone who expected a perfect release, while admirably optimitic, should be embarrassed to say that they bought the game (assuming they did) not expecting some issues. Unless they are a TW noob :)

That said, I await the official patch excitedly, and in the meantime, I just reinstalled Rome/BI and am re-unlocking the world!