Fixing the AI money script (preliminary tests)

[Dan_Grr]

I might as well make a new campaign with those changes, do you have a link so I can try it out?

[The Errant]

Here you go: http://www.axifile.com?4869948

I'm only at 250 B.C however so far I've seen a lot more agression from the AI. Useless stupid agression that gets the AI beaten by Eleutheroi but nevertheless, agression.
Baktria, Saka and Pahlava are at war with the AS. Saba is expanding with grace. Ptolies are eating up the Seleukids. Epeiros is fighting a war against Rome and the Carthies for control of southern Italy.
The Aedui are moving against the Arverni and the Sweboz have gotten a slow but steady start.
The Lusotana are trying to conquer in Iberia but are getting beaten back by the rebels and the Pontics are doing the same in Asia Minor but getting beaten back by the rebels.
Only the Getai are passive and content to sit by and watch others conquer the world.
The Sauromatae are also agressive but with little results it's not looking good. The Hai have taken one territory and are set on conquering more.
That's about it. I'll post screenies and more when I get to 200 B.C. Until then have fun with the new script.

edit. Damn this is a very good script. I'll post a little teaser pic so you have an idea what I'm talking about.

[Eminos]

Hi.

I've been watching the development of this thread with some interest as you can understand. I've continued to try to refine my initial idea guided by some of your results (Sheep's, The Errant's and Redmeth's mostly, but at one point I was thinking of exactly the same thing as Gaias, i.e. scripts for recruitment and using unrecruitable units in order to force the stupid A.I to build things instead of using almost all of its money for those stack parades. I gave up quite soon though since I don't think there are commands for recruitment, at least I couldn't find any under those few minutes I spent searching in the manuals from CA). I've also used some new ideas I just had to test. I'm not finished yet, but I may be on the right track now, heading towards what I would like to see. I give you one of my latest test results below, but I will wait with "publishing" of the script until I'm satisfied with the results over multiple test runs.

I think there are two choices regarding the step factions:
1. Reduce the upkeeps in the EDU-file, which sounds plausible to me as a layman. After all, I can imagine the armour and equipment being expensive, but people living "of the lands" as nomads shouldn't be dependent on a "normal" civilized economy based on mnai's. They are not roman legionaries demanding a regular paycheck. It's quite likely that someone will correct me on this point, I'm not a historian, but that kind of reasoning sounds good in my ears.
2. The other route, which I've actually taken since I don't want two separate EDU's for the two cases where I play as e.g. Sauromatae and the case where I play against them, is to simply give them cash to "balance out" the upkeep. I've also used another idea, trusting your reports that the AI recruits first and only builds infrastructure if there are any money left. Therefore as an experiment, just for the step factions, I've given them money in "bursts". Then there simply must be some money left once in I while for buildings and infrastructure (hoping that they only put one unit in que per settlement), and
I think it works since I'm keeping them just below zero in between the bursts so they are not too deep in a "valley of debt". In between those money bursts they are as poor as before.
I think I can see a tendency for them to develop their poor settlements better than before, I'm not sure since I haven't looked in detail yet if it is due to them or the rebels that held the settlement before them. In their starting provinces its easy to check and I'll have a closer look next time.

One quite fun experiment I was using in the latest test was something I called "Saka Great Leader". Inspired by the fact that step factions has had some tremendous leaders, (Genghis etc. Alright that was centuries later but why not a great leader earlier, we don't want to copy history by the book, do we?), and also by irritation over the poor performance of the Saka Rauka in a lot of my tests I decided to incorporate a trigger that gives them one shot, one chance to create an empire, even if it will not last so long. It's simply a spawn army, (or rather something like three half stacks, one general per stack) emerging under certain conditions and this may not even happen when those conditions are fulfilled since the whole thing is determined by a random number. I must admit that I couldn't resist laughing when I saw the mess those guys created for the Parthians one time, and for the Baktrians in another test. The maps below are from the test where they emerged 234 BC and totally disrupted Pahlavian plans of expansion for a while, as you can see. The Pahlavians (is that correct? maybe I should say Parthians) recovered but I think they would have done even better later on if it wasn't for those damned units emerging in the far east coming to rescue their western brothers. That's all for now. Back to tests and refinements, but before that I think I can't let go of the the test you see below. Usually I stop at 200 BC but this time I think I'll continue for some decades in order to see if the Romans manages to hurt Karthadast badly (that would be great considering that their armies are terrible, mostly consisting of their elite units and that they have taken a big bite out of the once so mighty Ptolemaic empire, seems to be simply unstoppable and there are even more coming in as reinforcements, and that despite the fact that I've been quite mean to Karthadast in the script).


[IMG][/IMG]

[Southern Hunter]

I've also used another idea, trusting your reports that the AI recruits first and only builds infrastructure if there are any money left. Therefore as an experiment, just for the step factions, I've given them money in "bursts". Then there simply must be some money left once in I while for buildings and infrastructure (hoping that they only put one unit in que per settlement), and
I think it works since I'm keeping them just below zero in between the bursts so they are not too deep in a "valley of debt". In between those money bursts they are as poor as before.

Sounds like a great idea. Why just the steppe factions though? Wouldn't that help ALL factions behave better?

[Eminos]

Because I've looked closely on the faction progressions for some months now in all my tests, starting in another thread, and most factions don't have constant flat lines at zero (which often corresponds to a "debt valley" of varying severity). Among the worst are Sauromatae, Saka and to some extent Getai but not in the same league as the first two. After the mine fix the Pahlava are doing far better e.g.

There are other factions with problems but over time they at least have some intervals of time where they can make investments in infrastructure. For some factions I would never dream of giving them any "money bursts", Karthadast and Baktria e.g. (almost the opposite in fact, but thats to much directing of the game even for my taste.)

[The Errant]

Here are the results of my latest script. The file itself is on a link a couple of posts above this one. I will make a couple of minor changes on behalf of the Sabaeans and Pontics but that's it.

Apart from the Pontics, no faction has yet to be eliminated. The two strongest factions are the Ptolies and Carthies who are also at war.

Highlights of the game was the first and last Punic War that begun in 237 B.C and ended with the loss of Sicily to Rome. The Lusotana kicked out the Carthies from Iberia and the Getai kept the powerhouse of Koinon from massive expansion by creating their own empire that even extended to three regions in Asia Minor.
Pahlava has expanded nicely and Baktria is in check. Rome may still be a bit underpowered but it's better than having a Holy Roman Empire comprising of Italy and Germany.
In 226 B.C the Saka broke out of their reservation and proceeded to trash the Pahlava on several occasions. The Pahlava, feeling nomadic pressure in the north, and betrayed by their erstwhile allies the Baktrians, decided to take over some of the Baktrian holdings in Asia. Including Marakanda and Baktra itself.

The lowered population bonuses in the script has kept the size of armies in check. Full sized and strength stacks are rare but do pop up once in a while. Most common being single unit stacks led by captains and some half strength stacks led by family members. So no more AI stack parades with this script.

Expansion is slow and requires some patience from the human player. Blitzing will propably have you master of the world in 30 years, but where is the fun in that? If you want AI stack parades and attrition warfare use the vanilla EB script.

The script is not perfect. It is however the best balance I've managed to achieve. Try it. If you don't like it, try Redmeth's, Sheep's or some other modders variant.

Thanks to Eminos64, Sheep and Redmeth. You did a terrific job with the script. I'll play a real campaign with my script first and try yours later. Thanks for all the help and ideas.

Here is a download link for the final version of the script: http://www.axifile.com?6463893

Have fun playing!

[Dan_Grr]

Im going to try this, thanks.

[Redmeth]

So, are any people enjoying the changes made to the script, if you use or used it please post your thoughts and impressions on mine or the Errant's script.
Or are you against using it because it's not from the team?

And if any team members are reading this:
Would you include something like this in your future builds?
What would be the right angle from which to approach this problem?

[d'Arthez]

I am currently using a script provided by The Errant. First test, the Eleutheroi had way too much income, crippling the European factions, which could not expand at all, as they had to fight full stacks. Only the Romans made a slight improvement from their starting position in 30 years.

But, the Seleucids and the Ptolemaioi remained balanced. Rarely I am in a game, in which Alexandreia is not controlled by the Seleucids in 260 BC, so that was a pleasant improvement. There was no Grey Death - rather a blue Death (me). I did not have to deal with a bazillion small armies, which was pleasant as well.

In the second test, I lowered the income of the Eleutheroi from 3500 to 2700. (slow player) Factions in Europe are somewhat expanding, but not at ridiculous speeds.

The steppe factions did not do much, in either game. In the first game, the Sauromatae managed to get in a war for Gava-Alanna, and succesfully wrest it from the control of the Saka. A first for me too.

So I am hoping that his latest script improves matters further. Judging by the screenie, I am quite optimistic.

I have one question, and perhaps the team can comment on that as well. As it seems that Central Europe iz the most affected by the additional money for the Eleutheroi, is that a reflection of the order in which the cities were created, or anything related to that? If so, changing the order of entry might be a way to increase the difficulty of conquering places, which were historically hard to conquer.

These scripts definitely add to the enjoyment of EB.

[Dan_Grr]

Now that I play with money script changes, I don't think I could ever go back, because fighting hordes of stacks every turn from a super cheating AI is not something that motivates me at all.

[Lucidus]

Or are you against using it because it's not from the team?

No,on contrary!I really like the script changes.Quoting Dan_Grr, I don't think I could ever go back.
Congratulations,keep the good work!

[d'Arthez]

Could anyone explain to me, how to actually use Axifile? It keeps sending me back and forth between two screens, despite the fact that I have even resorted to use an unmoddified Internet EXplorer?

.

[mlp071]

I am using THe Erant's script and it's fun.Stacks are not that infinite , but there is still some of them.

I am in 200 BC and just repelled 5 of them send on me (as Makedon) by Egypt , and now i got Carthage landing next to Epidarmnos with full stack and 2-3 more on the way.

Rome is down to Marsilia, and Getai are huge, still managed to keep them in alliance...Others are doing fine, except HK and Epiros(they are gone, HK by me , Epiros by Carthage and Rome).I did have 30 years of peace for myself, till everyone decided that wants piece of me..

Only complaint that i have is, that it's looks that AI always manages to gang up on human player somehow soon or later.

One faction starts war with you and everyone jumps in within 4-5 turns, even they were in very long alliance with you

Happened in every campaign that i played on VH/M, disregarding of script.

[Watchman]

That's hardconed. As far as the campaign AI is concerned the human player is abominable in the eyes of the Lord and needs to disappear off the face of the Earth.

[Laevex]

I am currently downloading both The Errant's and Redmeth's scripts so I can test them both and see which I like best.

I was wondering though, are there any tests of these scripts where Roma has done well? I can't see one and I think that's probably an inaccuracy, considering this time-frame was primarily the rise of the Roman Republic. I have absolutely no modding skills and very little historical knowledge, but it just seems to me that Rome should be enjoying a little more success than they are in any of these scripts.

[Redmeth]

The problem with Rome is that the AI just doesn't use fleets often or well (even with the BI-exe) so Rome taking Iberia (without going through southern Gaul) or invading Carthage is something I have not seen.

[Dan_Grr]

[...]

Only complaint that i have is, that it's looks that AI always manages to gang up on human player somehow soon or later.

One faction starts war with you and everyone jumps in within 4-5 turns, even they were in very long alliance with you

Happened in every campaign that i played on VH/M, disregarding of script.

This happened already in the Vanilla RTW. I think CA made the AI like that to compensate for the lack of any real intelligence, as factions ganging up on you will get you to think that this game is hard. Or something like that.

In my opinion this is a nuisance, completely unrealistic, and one of the most important, negative and annoying factors that put me off from Rome Total War altogether*. Essentially, diplomacy is a joke. But it's been this way since the game came out.

There a couple of ways to compensate for this: one is to wait eehmm maybe a couple of decades or so until games start coming out with an AI or until developers realize people want more than just shiny sparkling graphics;

OR

Use one of the money scripts on this thread and the Force Diplomacy mini-mod.



*I stopped playing several days ago, and before that, 2 year hiatus.

[The Errant]

This happened already in the Vanilla RTW. I think CA made the AI like that to compensate for the lack of any real intelligence, as factions ganging up on you will get you to think that this game is hard. Or something like that.

In my opinion this is a nuisance, completely unrealistic, and one of the most important, negative and annoying factors that put me off from Rome Total War altogether*. Essentially, diplomacy is a joke. But it's been this way since the game came out.

There a couple of ways to compensate for this: one is to wait eehmm maybe a couple of decades or so until games start coming out with an AI or until developers realize people want more than just shiny sparkling graphics;

OR

Use one of the money scripts on this thread and the Force Diplomacy mini-mod.



*I stopped playing several days ago, and before that, 2 year hiatus.

I'm glad you like the money scripts. They are there to improve the game. RTW sadly dosent' have a moddable AI. So there is nothing we (or anyone else short of a member CA) can actually do about the the human player being public enemy number one. What the money scripts are supposed to do is stop the AI from fielding an unlimited amount of stacks composed of elite units and stop the bribing of newly conquered settlements by the AI.
Any additional imporovements conserning the AI will have to wait until EB 2.
´
In the meanwhile I hope you enjoy the money scripts and that they help you balance your game. I will get back to modding the money script once the next version of EB comes out. By that time other modders like the original "Guru" of the money script Eminos64 will have his own version out.
Try them all. And find the version YOU are most comfortable with. Don't be afraid to try your own if you can do it better.

[Eminos]

In the meanwhile I hope you enjoy the money scripts and that they help you balance your game. I will get back to modding the money script once the next version of EB comes out. By that time other modders like the original "Guru" of the money script Eminos64 will have his own version out.
Try them all. And find the version YOU are most comfortable with. Don't be afraid to try your own if you can do it better.

Thx The Errant. Gives me more energy to continue the tedious work. Feels quite close now to a release of my script. Not quite satisfied yet though. Have to do something about the alliance of AS and Khartadast that is simply too much for the Ptolies in most of my tests. I've also got a problem with the faction that controls all of Greece, whoever it'll be they tend to dominate too much in my opinion. Below are two campaigns run with slightly different scripts. Even though you have to run a couple of test runs with exactly the same script I think I can say that small changes have big impact on the performance of the different factions. I'm quite sure of that since I've also compared the results to my little data bank of all the tests I've done so far which is quite a lot by now. I think I'll keep my "Saka leader" thing. It really "spices up" things. Those that don't like the idea can simply remove section 4c in my script when I release it, or if they want it to happen in something like one out of twenty campaigns they can simply put the randompercentage to the corresponding value.

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

[Yun Dog]

This looks good

playing as the ptolies, I have had a very slow and painstaking war of attrition against the AS... but after 3000 odd battles they are still coming with tons elite stacks of mercenaries, and the frequency of the battles has meant the game progresses very slowly

2 questions

any instal instructions for Erants script, do I run the EB script now still?

can I use it with my current campaign (save game compat)?

thx for your efforts

[mlp071]

Any additional imporovements conserning the AI will have to wait until EB 2.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that.... All moders in MTW2 are recomending playing their modes on Medium settings, due to same issue with AI not holding alliances and ganging up on human player


Anyways , back to topic...I really like your mod so far Errant, i am in 196bc.Last 12 years are challenge , due to everyone jumping on me, but there are no constant flow of infinite elite stacks...

After that they are quiet till they get more, which takes them 10-15 turns at least.

It's more realistic, so far biggest numbers that i had to face is Qarthadastim and Ptolies, around 5..

Getai sent 3 at once, but that was it for now , since i got them into war with Sweboz(cost me dearly 80000+ mnai, but was usefull)

I will let those 2 teritorial juggernauts(both have huge empires) got to fight till they bleed each other out.Which reminds me, that is only loophole in all scripts, Getai & Sweboz have alot of rebels around , and most of rebel cities in north are lightly defended, so they tend to grow quite huge.Maybe that can be changed, will see how to work on that.

I can live with that break (if only don't have to fight on other side, lol)

[The Errant]

This looks good

playing as the ptolies, I have had a very slow and painstaking war of attrition against the AS... but after 3000 odd battles they are still coming with tons elite stacks of mercenaries, and the frequency of the battles has meant the game progresses very slowly

2 questions

any instal instructions for Erants script, do I run the EB script now still?

can I use it with my current campaign (save game compat)?

thx for your efforts

Install instructions are easy. Just replace your EBBS script file (should be in Your RTW folder/EB/Data/scripts/show_me). My money script is the standard EB background script with modifications done to those sections that deal with AI population bonus and AI money bonus. Once you have replaced the file run EB and activate the background script normally at the beginning of the game. And whenever you load a save game too. It should be savegame compatible, but the full benefits don't really show up unless you've used it from the beginning of the campaign.
Also remeber to make a backup of the original background script.

About the Rebels. The RTW engine treats all the Rebels or Eleutheroi as one big faction with a shared treasury. To you they may look like a collection of independent petty kingdoms and city-states but they aren't really. In practical terms that means that those cities that border another AI or the human player are border cities. Since they are the most immediatly threatened they will also be the most heavily garrisoned. Often with a roving "fieldarmy" outside the settlement itself. Those northern cities don't have an immediate threat from another AI faction or the Human player. Hence the Rebel AI can concentrate on upgrading their infrastructure rather than use most of their population for recruiting garrisons.

I suppose I could place some reagional conditionals to spawn additional Eleutheroi armies to fight the AI invasion, but there is no guarantee they'll attack the AI or even stay in their cities, once their first, immobile garrison commanders die out. Anyway that is just a big maybe. I won't do any more tinkering with script until the next version of EB comes out.

There have been hints about a completely reworked Pahlava, so if they get a lot tougher, the current balance may fly right out the window. And that means back to being King of the Casse and tweaking out a new balance for the money script. *Shudders*

[Watchman]

What, you got something against being the True King Of Britain ?

[The Errant]

What, you got something against being the True King Of Britain ?

It reminds me a bit too much of my current location. Limbo. Try to imagine a place of white light, white ground, white sky. There is ground since you don't float but if you try to touch it with your hand you encounter nothing solid. Now add the fact there is nowhere to go and nothing to do. There is no up, down, left, right or anything else for that matter. I'm not even sure if it's air I'm breathing. Or am I breathing?

Don't move. Don't act. Don't think. Just click "End Turn" after "End Turn" and take the occasional screenshot. And then there are those wonderful occasional CTDs. If I could do it in my sleep, I would. Either that or I'll have to "loan" a monkey from the zoo to do it for me. Hmm.
*Goes off in direction of the zoo*

[Watchman]

Ah. Burnout.

[bovi]

Errant, I'm not sure if you know this already, but you can get the AI to play completely without your intervention. Add a -ai switch to your command line and they'll go to work all by themselves. If you want to stop them to take a look around you can run the console command halt_ai and resume with run_ai. I may have remembered the actual commands wrong but the functions are there. Sure alleviates the boredom of clicking every 3 minutes. Also be sure to use the -ne switch so it's windowed and you can do other stuff on the computer while waiting.

Downside is, apparently you can never gain control of any faction once you've started the game with the ai switch, it'll be written to the savegame. Also, the faction you choose at game start will be unaffected by all bonuses due to the FactionIsLocal condition, I suggest choosing Casse as they have little effect on anyone else.

[temenid]

Is there any way to use that feature on an in-progress game? I can't seem to get it to work, but it'd be amazing if you could just... skip 80 years. What could be more fun than rescuing the empire that you established in the first place?

[bovi]

The -ai switch cannot be used on a game in progress, just like you cannot take control over a saved game that started with the switch.

[ombudsman]

just got a question regarding the scripts, though i´m not a big fan of the "fight 20 stacks every year" wich is mandatory if you fight the grey death with the normal script, im just worried that the AI wont put up a fight at all with theese scripts, since i want a bit of a challange from time to time. if thats not the case, it seems great, i really like the AI progression with the scripts, looks badass.

[Redmeth]

The Eleutheroi are more of a challenge and the factions still build units and they get enough money to pay for their upkeep they also build too (in my version of the script I kept the script very close to the normal one for 20 years in order for the factions to build their stuff) Check out the first page for more explanations on the different scripts.
The challenge is still there but after taking out 2-3 enemy stacks they'll be slower to rebuild them they won't just spawn another stack the next turn it will take them a few turns.