Celtic overpowered!

[PSYCHO V]

If I may comment..

Thats definately too simple but it is also much too simple to say that the gauls just lost vs. the germanic tribes because of inner-tribal struggles.

Well, of course there is an element of luck and skill in battle but ‘weakness’ is regarded the underlying issue by most scholars I’ve read. The Germanics, like the Celts before them and their own Germanic descendants after, took advantage of circumstances and situations. I’m currently reading a work by Dr Michael Kulikowski on the Goths, and he bears this out quite clearly. The eb and flow of large demographics / peoples / tribes / nations is a dance of power, influence and commerce. The Germanics were drawn south initially due to the weakness and wealth of the surviving Halstatt chiefdoms in central Europe, then into the more prosperous Gallic, Rhaetian, etc lands …and finally the Greek and Roman lands.

They (Gauls) were pushed west- and southwards from the germanic tribes a few decades before Ariovist beat the Aedui or Ceasar conquered Gaul.

I’m sorry but that is just so completely wrong. This ignores almost everything we know about the Celts, Halstatt and La Tene culture, the material record, etc etc. The Gauls migrated long before the Germanics were even a blip on the historical radar.

The Gauls (Halstatt Celts) began arriving in ‘Gaul’ / France during the 8th and 7th C BC, over running the weaker indigenous Urnfield peoples, Ligurians, etc. They did so due to the lure of rich trade routs already established with the mediterrainian, better soil and climate, etc etc. In this group came the likes of the Arverni (‘superior ones’), Cavari (‘giants’), Cubi (‘Victors’ – later known as Bituriges ‘World Kings’), Parisii (effective ones’), Vicontii (‘twenty septs’), Salluvii (‘Those settled by the sea’), etc etc.

Thence came the La Tene Celts in the 5th and 6th C BC also seeking wealth and exploiting the weakness of their predecessors. These newcomers included likes of the Ligones (‘energetic ones / leapers’), Aedui (‘followers of the fiery one’ – Aedos the sun god), Boii (‘Attackers’), Volcae (‘wolves’), Redones (‘Chariot drivers’), etc etc. This wave of La Tene Celts pushed even more (then Halstatt / proto-La Tene tribes) west / south-west..like the Senones (‘Old inhabitants’), Cenomani (‘Far removed ones’), Sagii (‘Seekers’), Allobroges (‘foreigners’), Aulerci (‘exiles’), Sequani (named after the river in their new home ‘Sequana’) and their relatives the Helvetii (‘much land possessors’), Pictones (‘Belligerent ones’), Santones (‘Journeyers’), etc etc.

The Cubi, with their capital at Avaricum (modern Bourges) managed to absorb the influx of these new arrivals and adopt La Tene culture. Then under their renown king Ambicatus (‘He who turns battles’), they managed to unite through diplomacy and force of arms, all of greater Gaul by mid 5th C BC. This caused further migration to places like Britain.. as some subjected nations / tribes sought to flee the power of the Cubi, eg the Eburovices (‘yew conquerors’) becoming the Brigantes (‘High ones’), Cenomani becoming the Iceni, the Parisii becoming the Coritani and Parisi, etc etc ..all before these tribes had fully converted to La Tene culture.
...Itlay, Hiberia, etc etc.

The final ‘Gallic’ /Celtic wave was that of the Belgae (‘Furious ones’) in the 4th and 3rd C BC. The Belgae people and their various nations / tribes retained many peculiarities of the old Halstatt culture but meshed them with a proto-La Tene / La Tene ‘A’ flavour. Again they invaded and sought to exploit the weakness and ultimate collapse of the Cubi / Biturige empire, first invading and then over running the Aulerci who had been critically weakened in their struggle against the Cubi. The Belgae continued to advance all down the western coast to Armorica, before being checked by a resurgence of Aedui power through their sub-tribe the Carnutes (‘People of the Horned One’). So successful was the Aedui confederacy that the Belgae were completely pushed back over the Seine and groups like the Viromandui who bcame known as the Trinovantes, Casse / Catuellauni / Cauvellauni (‘Battle superiors’) either migrated to Briton, or in the cases of some of the Casse dispersed into smaller groups (eg Veliocasse, Baiocasse, Viducasse, Tricasse, Vadicasse, etc) and sought the protection other more power nations / tribes like the Remi.

But i also say it is much too easy to give the germanic tribes only credit for their successes because of inner-celtic struggles. They ..drove th Helvetii from their homelands and took many oppidas from their gallic enemies before the war between the Averni and the Aedui as the two major celtic powers.

Again I’m afraid this is wrong. The Arverni and Aedui had been fighting for centuries before the Germans arrived or the Helvetii migrated. The later doing so in an attempt to seize power for themselves in a war ravished land. Remember the Aedui had none of their council left alive and the Sequani, so bereft of fighting men had been forced to mobilise old men, young boys and seek the help of thousands of German mercenaries.

I agree with many things you say Anthony .. but i totally disagree that the Cimbri, Ambrones and Teutones were vassals of the Boii. That is a bold and very disputable point you bring up here.

I'd really like to see some proof here, if you believe in this argument..

I agree. There is no evidence that I’m aware of that suggests that they were clients of the Boii. What is worth noting at this juncture is that the Cimbri (and Tuetones by this point) were defeated in battle by the Boii and force to go around their lands.

As far as the name goes, most scholars state that Boiorix was probably the name given him by his Gallic allies / followers, they being the ones who acted on his behalf in diplomacy and recounted the detail for Roman records. But we will never know for sure. I don't believe one can jump to conclusions about clientage just from this one name.

Also the Boii could hold out longer vs the suebian tribes ( the Marcomannii should be mentioned here ), because the germanics took their effort further west- and southwards and not east into Boii territory.

I’m sorry but by the time the Marcomannii turn up to ravage the ‘lands of the Boii’, the Boii had almost a century earlier ceased to exist in any form of significant power.

The Dacian king Boerebistas had managed to unite the Getae and Boeri into one Darcian kingdom and unleashed his reputed forces of 200,000 on the hapless Celts / Gauls. First to feel the sting were the Scordisci who had only some decades before suffered a genocide at the hands of the Romans. Then Dacian attention was turned on the Boii and Taurisci (Volcae). At the Battle of Tisza (60 BC) in modern day Hungary, Critasiros king of the Boii suffered a crushing defeat. His people were subsequently massacred, the survivors fleeing west and their land becoming hence forth known as “The desert of the Boii”. The Germans had played a part in weakening the Boii but they merely moved into Boii lands once the Dacians had done their work and left.

my2bob