Celtic overpowered!

[Frostwulf]

Put this way: if the German combat troops were so consistently superior to those of the Celts as you argue, why did Ariovistus even feel the need - as he apparently did - to first wear them out by clever strategy and maneuvering before suddenly falling on them when they had already began to break up for want of an actual battle ? (Extended campaigns appear to have been a bit of a problem for the Celtic approach to war.) That's not the strategy you use with superior forces; it's a strategy you use when you think your troops can't be counted to win a straight-up fight.

For the same reason that Caesar waited for the Belgae to break up and leave, he would have lost. Both were outnumbered by a powerful foe, the Gauls were not weak, they just were not as powerful as the Germans or the Romans. Caesars troops were clearly superior to the Gallic troops, but that can change drastically if outnumbered and on unfavorable ground.

A counter point to this would be: how come the Gauls didn't go into the marsh after Ariovistus?

Not having read Caesar I don't know the context, but it sounds like Ariovistus had to dance around massed Gallic fighting forces on several occasions like that - presumably several chieftains and communities and whatnots joining together to try to deal with him.

From the way I understand it, Ariovistus defeated the majority of the Aedui nobility,cavalry,senators and etc. He then began to make demands on the Sequani, which didn't go over to well. The Sequani,Aedui and others proceeded with this battle: Magetobriga

Unknown site of a military engagement fought in 61 BCE between the Gallic tribes of the Aedui, Averni and Sequani on one side and the Germanic Suebi, under their King Ariovistus. The Suebi had moved into the region of Gaul comprising modern Alsace and had emerged as a powerful rival to the Gauls on the Rhine. Hoping to evict the unwelcome Germans, the local peoples, headed by the Aedui, confronted Ariovistus in the field. The resulting battle was a display of the martial superiority of the Suebi, for the tribes were crushed. Ariovistus established his rule over much of eastern Gaul. By 58 BCE, Rome was willing to listen to the pleas of the Gallic chieftains, and war erupted once again.
Citation Information:
Text Citation: Bunson, Matthew. "Magetobriga." Encyclopedia of the Roman Empire. New York: Facts On File, Inc., 1994. Facts On File, Inc. Ancient History & Culture. <www.factsonfile.com>.

I also forgot to mention you have to take what Caesar was thinking into account.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=309

[Erebus26]

Weren't the Helveti invited by a rogue Aedui Noble to help him in his dynastic struggle, and to provide a fighting force to cobat Ariovistus and his Suebi? I would have to disagree with H.D. Rankin if he implies that the Helveti were pushed out of their homelands by 'Germans', as the Helveti were a powerful tribal confederation.

To be honest we have to blame Caesar himself for this whole argument about 'Gauls' and 'Germans'. He created the Rhine boundary so he could back to the senate and say that he had conquered the whole of Gaul. It was more a political statement than a question of ethnicity, which I'm sure Caesar wouldn't have cared too much about. To sum up I don't think there is a lot of difference between the peoples who were at that time living on both sides of the Rhine.

[Watchman]

Could be that the Helveti weren't so much "pushed out" as simply "had had enough" - of fending off pesky raiders and would-be settlers who didn't appear to be inclined to give up no matter how often you chased them away, that is. Gaul wasn't apparently in the best of conditions at the time, so it's hardly inconceivable the Helveti bigwigs figured they could carve themselves a less contested (and probably rather more prosperous) domain there and let the damn northern barbarians have the mountains they so dearly wanted.

Weren't the dynamics of steppe-nomad "domino" migrations rather similar ?

A counter point to this would be: how come the Gauls didn't go into the marsh after Ariovistus?

And try to fight the Germans on the ground of their choosing which they were obviously more used to, and had the defender advantage to boot ? Bad idea. The Romans wouldn't do that kind of thing either for equally sensible reasons if they could avoid it.

[Erebus26]

Yeah I suppose so - it's was probably a number of reasons why the Helveti moved. But like you said better lands and less hassle were the main reasons. It's just I contest the point made by some authors that the Helveti were just another Gallic tribe that were ripe for the picking by 'uber' german warriors. But thats just my opinion.

[Frostwulf]

Weren't the Helveti invited by a rogue Aedui Noble to help him in his dynastic struggle, and to provide a fighting force to cobat Ariovistus and his Suebi? I would have to disagree with H.D. Rankin if he implies that the Helveti were pushed out of their homelands by 'Germans', as the Helveti were a powerful tribal confederation.

Atlas of the Celts-"A suitable pretext for military intervention arose in 58 BC, when the Helvetii, who lived beyond the eastern borders of Gaul, began massing for a planned migration in the face of Germanic pressure." pg.82
The Atlas and Rankin are hardly the only ones to say this, Warry, Newark, etc. etc.

To be honest we have to blame Caesar himself for this whole argument about 'Gauls' and 'Germans'. He created the Rhine boundary so he could back to the senate and say that he had conquered the whole of Gaul.

I agree with this.

It was more a political statement than a question of ethnicity, which I'm sure Caesar wouldn't have cared too much about. To sum up I don't think there is a lot of difference between the peoples who were at that time living on both sides of the Rhine.

I think there was a difference, technology,artistry,religion,culture in general. There were also many similarities, but they were different and both Celts and Germans recognized it.

Could be that the Helveti weren't so much "pushed out" as simply "had had enough" - of fending off pesky raiders and would-be settlers who didn't appear to be inclined to give up no matter how often you chased them away, that is.

This is a possibility, though I still tend to believe people who actually are historians/archaeologists for a living.

Gaul wasn't apparently in the best of conditions at the time, so it's hardly inconceivable the Helveti bigwigs figured they could carve themselves a less contested (and probably rather more prosperous) domain there and let the damn northern barbarians have the mountains they so dearly wanted.

Gaul wasn't in the best of conditions?

Simon James "The World of the Celts"-"Certainly, the Gaul described and conquered by Caesar showed no signs of exhaustion by internal wars-it was a rich and prosperous land" pg.74

*Atlas of the Celts-"During the first half of the 1st century BC, the rest of Gaul attained an uneasy accommodation with the Roman occupation of the south. Celtic Gaul was generally a prosperous and peaceful region where farms flourished and oppida (towns), stimulated by Roman trade grew ever larger. In central Gaul, societies became sufficiently complex and well organized to be on the brink of independent statehood, and left to their own devices they might well have achieved this within a generation or two. pg.82

And try to fight the Germans on the ground of their choosing which they were obviously more used to, and had the defender advantage to boot ? Bad idea. The Romans wouldn't do that kind of thing either for equally sensible reasons if they could avoid it.

I think you are correct on this, same for the reasons the Germans and Caesar chose not to fight in certain situations.

Yeah I suppose so - it's was probably a number of reasons why the Helveti moved. But like you said better lands and less hassle were the main reasons. It's just I contest the point made by some authors that the Helveti were just another Gallic tribe that were ripe for the picking by 'uber' german warriors. But thats just my opinion.

So what do you base this on? Where did you get your information from? Any information you have from a credible source would be sincerely welcomed.

[Watchman]

Wasn't one of the Gauls' prime trade commodities with the Romans slaves, though ? And you usually don't sell your own subjects as such in any great numbers, and obviously those of neighbours tend not come willingly...

Also, if the Helveti were to be genuinely pushed away from their lands by the encroaching Germans, one has trouble imagining they could actually afford to prepare for their migration as thoroughly as they did (as opposed to, you know, barely escaping with their lives). Moreover one would expect them to have been seriously militarily weakened by the Germanic raids and victories; yet they were apparently a formidable enough force that the potentates of Gaul proper did not apparently even try to check them by their own force of arms (which begs the question if they didn't have an acute shortage of that, doubly so if one were to follow the Helvetii-chased-away-by-Germans hypothesis), instead calling on their Roman contacts to defend them.

[Erebus26]

Frostwulf - for questions about German and Celtic ethnicity I found "Beyond Celts, Germans and Scythians" by Peter Wells useful. He just puts forward the case that not all what ancient Greek and Romans put forward about the northern barbarians is correct.

For your point about the Helveti - Caesar states that the Helveti wage constant war against the Germans, either repelling them from their own territories, or invading German lands. Caesar also say because of this they had the most valour of Gallic tribes. Orgetorix proposed that the Helvetti, whoes lands were confined to the mountains, move into the territory of the Aedui - to do this he married his daughter off to Dumnorix - a noble of the Aedui. He also made an alliance with the Sequani noble Casticus so he could pass through their lands. Unfortunately Orgetorix never fulfilled his ambition as he was killed, whilst Dumnorix was driven out by his brother Divitiacus, who had the backing of the Romans. I don't think Caesar mentions that the Helveti's migration was because of germanic raiding, but he does mention that they wanted better land. This is all from Caesar's Gallic Commentaries - the first few pages.

*I've edited this post because the guys below think I'm referring to Caesar's pep talk, but I'm not as I'm referring to the first few pages when Caesar's discusses the movement of the Helveti*

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Oh my God! Does everyone here use the same avatar?!? This is madness!!! No wonder I stay away from this thread.