Celtic overpowered!

[Frostwulf]

Wasn't one of the Gauls' prime trade commodities with the Romans slaves, though ? And you usually don't sell your own subjects as such in any great numbers, and obviously those of neighbours tend not come willingly...

Simon James-"The World of the Celts"-"Slavery existed, although on a smaller scale than in the Classical world; slaves may have been most important as export commodities." pg. 53

I believe most slaves were acquired while raiding and the battles, but it doesn't seem to be in large numbers.

Also, if the Helveti were to be genuinely pushed away from their lands by the encroaching Germans, one has trouble imagining they could actually afford to prepare for their migration as thoroughly as they did (as opposed to, you know, barely escaping with their lives). Moreover one would expect them to have been seriously militarily weakened by the Germanic raids and victories; yet they were apparently a formidable enough force that the potentates of Gaul proper did not apparently even try to check them by their own force of arms (which begs the question if they didn't have an acute shortage of that, doubly so if one were to follow the Helvetii-chased-away-by-Germans hypothesis), instead calling on their Roman contacts to defend them.

Erebus answers your question of the Gaul proper situation.

For your point about the Helveti - Caesar states that the Helveti wage constant war against the Germans, either repelling them from their own territories, or invading German lands. Caesar also say because of this they had the most valour of Gallic tribes. Orgetorix proposed that the Helvetti, whoes lands were confined to the mountains, move into the territory of the Aedui - to do this he married his daughter off to Dumnorix - a noble of the Aedui. He also made an alliance with the Sequani noble Casticus so he could pass through their lands. Unfortunately Orgetorix never fulfilled his ambition as he was killed, whilst Dumnorix was driven out by his brother Divitiacus, who had the backing of the Romans. I don't think Caesar mentions that the Helveti's migration was because of germanic raiding, but he does mention that they wanted better land. This is all from Caesar's Gallic Commentaries - the first few pages.

As a Celtophile I am going to be a bit biased even though I try not to be, but I'll take Caesar's pep talk for fact. Which leads me to agree with Watchman that the Helvetii left their lands not because they were forced by the Germans, but because there were better lands to be had and the "unsuccessful" German raids were becoming too annoying to bother with anymore. It's not like the Helvetii could cross the Rhine and defeat all the Germanic tribes - maybe one or two or possibly 10 but more would eventually take their place. There are many times playing as the Aedui that I flirt with the idea of abandoning Mediolanum to postpone the inevitable war with Rome, who, no matter how many times I defeat them in battle, just will not stop attacking...

What you guys are saying makes sense.

Caesar-"The Gallic War"-" in such circumstances their range of movement was less extensive, and their chance of waging war on their neighbors were less easy; and on this account they were greatly distressed, for they were men that longed for war."
If they left their homeland for lack of raiding what about what he says about going into the German lands and subduing them there? The Germans would have had cattle and other items that were "raid worthy". I'm sure it wouldn't have been up to the level of loot that Gaul could produce.

That the Helvetians originally lived in southern Germany is confirmed by the Alexandrian geographer Claudius Ptolemaios (ca. 90-168 AD), who tells us of an Ελουητίον έρημος (i.e. “Helvetic deserted lands”) north of the Rhine.[7] Tacitus knows that the Helvetians once settled in the area between Rhine, Main and the Hercynian forest.[8] The abandonment of this northern territory is now usually placed in the late 2nd c. BC, around the time of the first Germanic incursions into the Roman world, when the Tigurini and Toygenoi/Toutonoi are mentioned as participants in the great raids.

We all know the Helvetii burnt their homes and everything they couldn't take with them before leaving their land (for whatever reason), and that they were defeated in battle by Caesar and forced to return home...

I have also wondered this. I don't know what the reason these authors have said they were pressured to leave their home by the Germans. I should be receiving a new book soon that may cover the subject.

Frostwulf - for questions about German and Celtic ethnicity I found "Beyond Celts, Germans and Scythians" by Peter Wells useful. He just puts forward the case that not all what ancient Greek and Romans put forward about the northern barbarians is correct.

I have seen his book but have not read it of as yet. I hope to get to it before the years end. Thanks for the information.

When Caesar mentions the Helvetii successfully defending their lands against the Germans and even defeating them in their own (German) lands, he is doing so when giving his troops a pep talk, (see my post above). Frostwulf has replied that he takes what Caesar said as basically a motivational speech - just some "lies" made up to keep the Roman troops from worrying about facing the Germans.

Basically Helvetii beat Germans, Romans beat Helvetii, ergo Romans will beat Germans.

I find it odd that anyone would use lies to motivate and boost morale, but it isn't out of the question so Frostwulf can interpret the passage as he may.

Glewas I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I don't think Caesar was lying at all, but I do think he was omitting things. I even put down that I didn't think Caesar knew that the Germans pressured the Helvetii. You have to take into account he did omit the defeats of the Romans and for good reason.
For the Aedui weakling thing Rome didn't exactly have fond references to the Gauls, thinking them fickle and other such things. But we do know that the "weaklings" would have involved the elite of the Gauls at the time.
Glewas what part of my analysis did you disagree with and why?