Celtic overpowered!

[Spendios]

[NeoSpartan]

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

[blitzkrieg80]

Come on guys, quoting the same picture over and over is so annoying... now find some quotes from Caesar instead, like good Romans- better yet, some pictures of Loricata Segmentata (probably too many t's there, but it's a silly language anyways ) otherwise, we will get more "why u R0mun hat3rs?" comments

[PSYCHO V]

As they say “a man convinced against their will is of the same opinion still”

Frosty, your flogging a dead horse my friend. Using the same quotes over and over again, ignoring evidence and your own errors and in some cases responding to my comments with text that is completely irrelevant.

I don’t have the time to give this the response it deserves. So in short:

Meaning you have no proof as it has "yet to be studied".

Did you miss the relevant quotes I provided or are you deliberately ignoring them?

The information I had was true, but it was out of context, therefore it was not erroneous.

Still trying to wriggle out of that one huh? I note the convenient switch from discussing your claim / position to that of the information. The validity of information was never part of the discussion. You made a claim that was wrong, for some reason you just can’t acknowledge it.

Ah yes the refuge of the losing argument- "you must be a Nazi"

So you’re ignoring the several quotes I’ve posted on the origins of your 'innately superior German' theory. Frosty, you can’t blame me for the fact that you’re espousing the same rationale / hypothesis as the Romanticists, German Nationalists and yes, the Nazis.

As with most things you seem to have problems understanding what was written.

It wasn't random data and it is logical to assume that the Germans fought roughly in the same way as they had before.

So you’re basically saying that you believe the Germanics were so stupid, that they were unable to effect one change within their socio-cultural communities over several hundred years?

You probably should start up a new thread if you want to write fiction about “Invincible Germanic Neanderthals” as this isn't really relevant to the topic here, "Celtic overpowered".

I said that Ariovistus had 6,000 horse, 6,000 footmen and 16,000 light troops. I have said that multiple times.

And the error repeated ..."mulitple times". The problem is that you’re claiming that the Romans had a significant numerical advantage, which is bolox

It’s also worth mentioning that the Helvetii charged a force ten times their size (400/4000) whilst the Germans only three times their size (1,600/5000)… so again, are the Gauls innately superior? …of course not!

1600 is an assumption as there is nothing really said except that there was 800 cavlary.

800 cavalry, 1600 troops… or does this need to be spelt out as well?

Even if I were to consider it as evidence I would have to disagree with Dr. James and go with … Goldsworthy

So much for defending this “excellent information by a well known and highly thought of Archaeologist”.

He does have excellent information and is highly regarded. If what you say he said is true about the Germans I would disagree with him

..(*sigh*)

Again this is not evidence, if I were to contact Dr.James and he said that nothing of the sort happened, what does that prove? You will still claim it did happen and my claim would be that it didn't.

And if you did and he repeated his comment you’d still dismiss it as indicated several times now. Truth is, you’ve been posting James’ comments all over the community in support of your hypothesis, citing his credentials and as soon someone else comes along with another quote that explicitly denies your hypothesis, you suddenly dismiss him.

Powell states that he believed the Romans were the weaker party for far longer, that “the Romans finally managed to turned the tide of Gaulish supremacy from the victory at the battle of Telamon (225 BC)”

This statement of his is obviously wrong.

Of course!

So we go from:

The Gauls had been defeating the Germans for centuries prior the beginning of the 1st C BC.

to

I repeat, you’re NOT talking about the same peoples. You may as well start making claims about the Germans vs the forces of the United States of America.

What exactly don't you understand here? You’ve confused yourself again by trying to view everything through the narrow minded paradigm of the “Timeless Celt”. I’ll say it again, you can’t ignore chronology and regional variation.

Three battles in fact. Catugnatos and his Allobroges defeated a Roman army led by Manlius Lentius at the Battle of Valence and then again at the Battle of the Isere, in which “His (Lentius’) army would have been wiped out but for a sudden storm which arose and hindred the attack”. Lentius fled and was able to apparently re-equipped his army with astonishing speed, drawing from the considerable reserves used to garrison various departments. The Allobroges were finally crushed between Lentius’ army and another huge force commanded by the Governor of Gallia Narbonesis, Gaius pomptinus. The Gauls / Allobroges, not able to make good the loss of their warrior elite surrendered.

Were not the Allobroges part of the Arverni/Sequani alliance? If so then how is it they were able to resist the Romans at all if the supposed "Devastating Civil War" happened.

(*sigh*)
I'm afraid in desperation you have again shot yourself in the foot. Giving further public evidence that you appear to lack a basic understanding of the period of history under discussion.

No! The Allobroges hadn’t been part of the alliance since the battle of Vindalium (121 BC), the battle that facilitated the onset of the war in question.

Hmm I mention what Dr.James says and you go from:

"We also know commercial production of many goods and trade all but ceased and large portions of the population starved or suffered from malnutrition."

to this:

"Yes!!.. Gaul was extremely prosperous (both fiscally and population wise), this is one of the main reasons why Caesar was so keen to pillage / conquer it! He did after all have huge personal debts".

Then this:

"This is born out in the material record with significant deposits of fragmentary war material, remains and most significantly thick ash levels around major sites dating to the period…"

To this:

"Archaeology only shows a burning / pillaging of minor settlements of no major value."

Nice try…context my friend. Yes, the later is regarding your quotes “during Caesar’s time”, the ones previous, to the conflicts prior. You do understand that the Arverni and Aedui fought prior to the period of Caesar’s campaign do you not? ..and you do understand that the aforementioned fought two major wars?

From this:

The devastation of this war cannot be understated. It was unprecedented / appears more extensive and vicious that any internal Celtic conflict prior.

To this:

Gaul was extremely prosperous because the Gauls did NOT engage in total war."

…and your point?

Further, the material record bears this out. The huge increase in the trade of slaves happens to coincide with the huge increase in the trade of wine.

Quote:
They (Gauls) are extremely partial to wine and glut themselves with the unmixed wine brought in by merchants. Their desire makes them guzzle it and when they get drunk, they either fall into a stupor or become manic. For this reason many Italian merchants, with their usual love for money, regard the Celtic passion for wine as a source of treasure. They transport the wine by boat on the navigable rivers and by cart … and get an incredibly good price for it; for one amphora of wine they get a slave. (Hist 5.26 Diodorus Siculus)

We have deposits of tens of thousands of distinctive Amphora of Dressel Type 1A & 1B dating to this period. Huge dumps like that found in Saone, Cabillonum (Chalon) testify to the significant increase in importation. Thus even in a war that would almost annihilate the warrior class, the precious wine was prized.

Well what do you know, “Whilst it is always necessary to treat texts of this kind with caution” doesn't help your argument, good thing you didn't put it in!

… well what do you know .. more desperation!

Neither helps nor hinders my friend. Frosty, unlike others about the place, I’ve got better things to do than type up text that is irrelevant to the point being discussed. Whether the Romans got 1 slave, 2 or 10 for each amphora is a mute point. The point was that the market was significant enough to warrant special mention. Are you going to dismiss the tangible evidence as well?

For starters, Caesar’s cavalry were also betrayed, by Ariovistus and his overtures of peace. Secondly, the mighty ‘800’ (even if Caesar is to believe on the numbers) ambushed the Gauls, experienced or not. Ceasar’s veteran legions ran at Gergovia, should we start claiming that Vercingetrix’s Gauls were all innately superior?

You should read and try to understand what Caesar has written. Fist (sic) off the "800" had nothing to do with Ariovistus, they were from the Usipetes and Tencteri. The Usipetes and Tencteri did not ambush the Gauls.

Please revisit the text and note how the Usipetes and Tencteri were seeking peace when they unexpectedly attacked.
You’re right however about Ariovistus, he wasn’t involved, my error …irrelevant point conceded.


Frosty, please re-read over some of my previous comments. Not only is your hypothesis of a innately superior Germanic volk critically flawed, but the very means / analytical method employed to support such a ridiculous notion is as well.

If you wish to persist in this thinking / the belief in the existence of an innately superior Germanic volk, all I can do is encourage you to continue your study and hope you'll have a change of mind.

I no longer have the time to due justice to this dicsussion and therefore will not be able to continue. I thank you for your input and time, apologise for any offence I may caused, my frustration, etc (it's all banter) and wish you well in the future.


Regards

[Maksimus]

I have noticed that Celts are very unbalanced in my EB 1, maybe that is because other unit types are (horsmen?).

For example, Celtics spearman are almost imposible to kill if you dont have 3 Hellenes units or the Silver shields..and they beat silver shields 1 on 1. Also they shortsword are way owerpowerd. I understand that some studies that are base for EB can not be denied, but it is a matter of source and perspective. I understand that 'half' of Europe are Celt. But that cant stand in front your rational tough.

For example, my history profesor that lectures all around Europe, once said to me that if one should count armies and strengts -- he should count MEDICALY!
I was like w..what? And he said
:'Yes, the more you have to offer your army as a cure to their wounds - they are more effective'.. and he added :'80% of all deaths after battles of ancient times (especialy Roman era) was due to their wounds and infections'.. And if somebody writes now that Barbarians had their Druids and Hellenes their academies and doctors wich makes them the same - I will hang myself...(and this is just an example, not to say knowledges of how to eat and live in civilised world)

The point is... you must tweak unit strengts as a 'whole' and if you can not (and it is well known that you can not!!!) incorporate all side effects in EB to make it more real -- you should tweak hitpoints at the least ! This just does not work well .. Civilised armies should be at least 20% stronger in commbat

thank you!

[Thaatu]

Civilised armies should be at least 20% stronger in commbat

You said the magic word! I suggest you take cover...

[Watchman]

Gah, I say.

[The Celtic Viking]

Maksimus: I agree with that part about "Civilised armies should be at least 20% stronger in commbat". I suggest we nerf the Romans and Greeks to portray that.

[Thaatu]

Maksimus: I agree with that part about "Civilised armies should be at least 20% stronger in commbat". I suggest we nerf the Romans and Greeks to portray that.

Oooouuuh... vicious.

[Zaknafien]

I have noticed that Celts are very unbalanced in my EB 1, maybe that is because other unit types are (horsmen?).

For example, Celtics spearman are almost imposible to kill if you dont have 3 Hellenes units or the Silver shields..and they beat silver shields 1 on 1. Also they shortsword are way owerpowerd. I understand that some studies that are base for EB can not be denied, but it is a matter of source and perspective. I understand that 'half' of Europe are Celt. But that cant stand in front your rational tough.

For example, my history prof. that lectures all around Europe, once said to me that if one should count armies and strengts -- he should count MEDICAL!
I was like w..what? And he said
:'Yes, the more you have to offer your army as a cure to their wounds - they are more effective'.. and he added :'80% of all deaths after batlles of ancient times (especialy Roman era) was duoe to their wound and infections'.. And if somebody writes now tath Barbarians had their Druids and Hellenes their academies I will hang myself...(and this is just an example, not to say knowledges of how to eat adn live in civilised world)

The point is... you must tweak unit strengts as a 'whole' and if you can not (and it is well known that you can not!!!) incorporate all side effects in EB to make it more real -- you should tweak hitpoints at the least ! This just does not work well .. Civilised armies should be at least 20% stronger in commbat

thank you!

[NeoSpartan]

I have noticed that Celts are very unbalanced in my EB 1, maybe that is because other unit types are (horsmen?).

For example, Celtics spearman are almost imposible to kill if you dont have 3 Hellenes units or the Silver shields..and they beat silver shields 1 on 1. Also they shortsword are way owerpowerd. I understand that some studies that are base for EB can not be denied, but it is a matter of source and perspective. I understand that 'half' of Europe are Celt. But that cant stand in front your rational tough.

For example, my history prof. that lectures all around Europe, once said to me that if one should count armies and strengts -- he should count MEDICAL!
I was like w..what? And he said
:'Yes, the more you have to offer your army as a cure to their wounds - they are more effective'.. and he added :'80% of all deaths after batlles of ancient times (especialy Roman era) was duoe to their wound and infections'.. And if somebody writes now tath Barbarians had their Druids and Hellenes their academies I will hang myself...(and this is just an example, not to say knowledges of how to eat adn live in civilised world)

The point is... you must tweak unit strengts as a 'whole' and if you can not (and it is well known that you can not!!!) incorporate all side effects in EB to make it more real -- you should tweak hitpoints at the least ! This just does not work well .. Civilised armies should be at least 20% stronger in commbat

thank you!

ouch.... ur lucky this is a VERY friendly forum

Ohh, I suggest you start a campain with the Arverni or Aedui.... you might learn something

here is a hint of the knowledge to come:
"Celts invented soap, and all the while neither the Greek or Romans had anything close to that."

[blitzkrieg80]

does this thread actually provide any good? it seems like a repository of hate

"why r EB hat3rs of barbie-nZ?" (hint: not Klaus Barbie- sorry Psycho)

[NeoSpartan]

does this thread actually provide any good? it seems like a repository of hate

"why r EB hat3rs of barbie-nZ?" (hint: not Klaus Barbie- sorry Psycho)

Dude this thread is Fing awesome.... appart from the lenght of it, there is a LOT of info here regarding the history of the Gauls, especially how they came about falling.

Hell... I would even vote to have it stickied.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think Blitz made that statement as a remark regarding the 20% stronger civs...

[-Praetor-]

hey... wtf are u guys talking about??? Why are u all looking and arguing about Germany in 19th, and 20th Century????

Godwins law

( "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." )

[antiochus epiphanes]

im sorry i had to do that..

[Maksimus]

You are very unpolite and I just can not belive that you are EB member, you are a shame for this forum. There are some very nice people that create EB - you sure are not one oh them.. not a sence of creativity from you


If not, then sorry. And I must say that you are not educated well or you are in some 'left' or no high education what so ever!

[Pharnakes]

Oh, trust me Zak is a member all right, and one of the more polite and civilized ones too, prozided he is in polite cizilized company, so how about you just take his advice? maybe you'll get more pleasure out of it than from your ignorant, imature whining. You, sir are disgrace to these forums and humanity as whole.

Recently I have being wondering why the EB tem are overacting so much in a lot of other threads, that to me, seemed over the line but not waranting the EB teams replies, but then I saw that this thread had been dredged up again, and I thought, "Oh god, now what are they whining about?". And then I read the last page. And then I understood just why the EB team has been so anoyed these last few days, due to imature, pompous, dogmatic little brats like yourself. Please, remove yourself before I get myself banned from these forums by responding to you in the manner that you deserve.

Edit: and yes I am an EB Fanboi, and proud of it

[Andronikos]

I continue the discusion about physicians. You cannot compare druids to helenic/roman physicians as siberian shamans to best oxford/cambridge doctor. In EB timeframe both of them could use only natural products, mostly herbs, as there was no chemistry and no artificial drugs. Druids were very skilled, they learned how to use herbs, which of them are poisonous, which heal wounds and so on. We do not know many about them and their methotds because they did not write books like their civilisated counterparts did. That can be an advantage for civilised doctors - you can have more info when you have books than when you have to remember it. And hygiene and healthy lifestyle - greeks and romans did not know so much about it. It was Galen who started to build sunny hospitals, perform operations in separated rooms and put knives into fire before using them. And he lived long after EB timeframe ends. Yes, there were some very good doctors before Galen and roman physicians had to be skilled - when you wage so many wars, there are so many wounds you have to heal.
To conclude - both celts and romans/helenes had good doctors, perhaps the civilised ones were slightly better.

[Thaatu]

You are very unpolite and I just can not belive that you are EB member, you are a shame for this forum. There are some very nice people that create EB - you sure are not one oh them.. not a sence of creativity from you

And! Are. You. Nazi? If you are - Kiss Putins (.) ...

If not, then sorry. And I must say that you are not educated well or you are in some 'left' or no high education what so ever!

To sound a little aggressive myself, answering thousands of stupid questions, and refusing demands that are logical only in the head of the person who makes them, does take it's toll on any person. You must be pretty educated yourself to judge someone's creativity and education by a single post. Not knowing anything about Celts, well... I don't if education is to blame, or just simple mindness. Just to let you know that Zaknafien is pretty much responsible for your precious EB Romans, so you might want to keep that in mind the next time you play.

But I will try to answer your initial questions to the best of my abilities.

I have noticed that Celts are very unbalanced in my EB 1, maybe that is because other unit types are (horsmen?).

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Other unit types are horsemen..?

For example, Celtics spearman are almost imposible to kill if you dont have 3 Hellenes units or the Silver shields..and they beat silver shields 1 on 1.

Do you mean Gaesatae, or actual spearmen? If you mean spearmen, then I'm quite sure you're BSing. If you mean Gaesatae, that's how it's supposed to be.

Also they shortsword are way owerpowerd. I understand that some studies that are base for EB can not be denied, but it is a matter of source and perspective. I understand that 'half' of Europe are Celt. But that cant stand in front your rational tough.

How are the shortswords overpowered? Did you test this somehow? Do you know anything about shortswords? Are you talking about the Galatians? Do you know anything about the Galatians? I imagine Roman shortswords are waaayyy underpowered, am I right? And I don't think the spread of Celtic population has anything to do with shortsword effectiveness...

For example, my history profesor that lectures all around Europe, once said to me that if one should count armies and strengts -- he should count MEDICALY!
I was like w..what? And he said
:'Yes, the more you have to offer your army as a cure to their wounds - they are more effective'..

Nice generalization. Simple as math.

...and he added :'80% of all deaths after battles of ancient times (especialy Roman era) was due to their wounds and infections'.. And if somebody writes now that Barbarians had their Druids and Hellenes their academies and doctors wich makes them the same - I will hang myself...

Soap is pretty good in preventing infections. Just please don't hang yourself, it ain't worth dying for.

(...and this is just an example, not to say knowledges of how to eat and live in civilised world)

Celts weren't actually starving, so I can't see how food has anything to do with it. Of course, there was no such thing as a fat Roman.

The point is... you must tweak unit strengts as a 'whole' and if you can not (and it is well known that you can not!!!)

I hope that's not meant as an insult, but it can be read as such.

incorporate all side effects in EB to make it more real -- you should tweak hitpoints at the least ! This just does not work well ..

Funny how you seem to be about the only person who thinks EB battles don't work well... Maybe we should take your word on it. You seem to be an expert.

Civilised armies should be at least 20% stronger in commbat

You seem to be an expert...

I hope this helps. If not, I'm sorry I couldn't be more sarcastic.



Pharnakes, you typoed 'whining'. Shame on you.

[Pharnakes]

Opps, "winning" lol, I hope he isn't doing that at least.

[blitzkrieg80]

You are very unpolite and I just can not belive that you are EB member, you are a shame for this forum. There are some very nice people that create EB - you sure are not one oh them.. not a sence of creativity from you

And! Are. You. Nazi? If you are - Kiss Putins (.) ...

If not, then sorry. And I must say that you are not educated well or you are in some 'left' or no high education what so ever!

Zak is very polite and well educated, and as mentioned, a good deal responsible for some truly great stuff with the Roman faction... now, if you don't think so, that shows how far into the deep end you've become. So what if he is rude, after you've been blatantly disrespectful and arrogant, what does that say about YOU, when you started that way, there was no transition from good behavior to bad?... talk about shame on the forum

[Zaknafien]

heh, i just was looking for a chance to post that movie :)lol

[Pharnakes]

It seems that even Maksimus has been put on this planet for a purpose, then...

[Maksimus]

My post had no intention to be rude or insulting, or to downsize, devaluates or judge someone's creativity and education by a single post, especially not an EB member. But, because of such a nice comment to someone like me that can not comment and 'quote' and write about references because English is not his native - then fine, I am not blatantly disrespectful and arrogant, that impression could come only if you support Zaknafien's movie posts. . . and that was his response to my observation of my current campaign -- and I am no Roman fan (do they are very nice realy) but I am EB fan still -- and no 'bad' posts that attack me will change that.

I will just shortly address some comments of: Thaatu, fanboi Pharnakes, and blitzkrieg80 -- and Zak -- you post that movie to some bad people with bad intentions around here - or in some forums that need that.

Generalization and simple math was not my intention, its just that I dont have time and will to argue and post for hours here-- and my English is not so god - so it is somewhat hard for me to type what I mean in a way that it wouldn't touch anyones feelings and believes

Behind my comment that it is well known that you (EB team) can not shape RTW as you wish is a simple fact due to RTW engine limits. Right? I read that several times here - and that was posted by other EB members - so, that is no insult and sorry if it looked like one. And just to add that my point here was due to some posts that explained how Romans were not 'stonger' but were better in their battle tactics -- and how can you implement that in RTW EB (I understand the exp._descr_units, but battle formations?) - all factions have the same formation options - or if one can say that there was (and I can refer that there were) a greater chance of a Roman soldier to get healed after battle -- how can that be implemented -- there are just thousands of possible 'tweaks' that could sease these arguments if only they 'could' be in RTW - but they cant because of RTW engine limits..right?
I wont argue about the Soap, its a fact (only for Europe - not Far East) , but If someone is trying to say that Romans had no 'other' 'cleaning' tools - is mistaken - they have (and some very rich people still use) used olive oil and herbs that is very effective - and no soap can put your body parts back onto you - but it can be done by a Roman medic..

Know, I must adress 'overpowered shortswords' -
Yes I have tested it in my battles and I very well know who are Galatians - It is just a fact that they are very hard to kill (and they have higher defence than various greek units) -- and I am no Roman fanboy -- I really use tactics to win and I havent even played with Romans in EB.
And the spread of Celtic population has a thing or two to do with shortsword effectiveness actually...

Like, what would we say If some group of Italian historians came in charge of EB units tweaks? I am not sure they would follow all EB patterns - here we come to the point of source! All my sources are not Anglo-Germanic origins - mine are better, new and neutral.
EB battles work well... but the horsmen are underpowerd against shortswords even if they have a full charge - few of my generals (upgraded and high level)
just can not kill one Galatian shortswords unit...sorry for my opinion it is still just my stand here.
And if its hard to see how food has anything to do with an army, his people and state and the way it is used and prepared - then I have no comment - exept - try to run for 20 minutes and practise for a while (that is why new sources are important) And remmember what happent to Romans when they started to use lead?

note: disgrace to these forums and humanity as whole can be a tittle of one Nazi - and very sarcastic people (whom I hope) dont live in a sarcastic way - that is bad for your society and your friends


And this is all from me, I'll add to all, sorry for and if there were any hardfeelings - that was not an intention, thank you for your time to post here because for me (do it was not pleasant at all )..but, here we are, hope no harm was done - there were no ideas to hurt someones ego or personallity

thank you for your time EBs, be well

[Zaknafien]

dude, dont worry about it. I was just posting a funny movie. No hard feelings :)

[Maksimus]

dude, dont worry about it. I was just posting a funny movie. No hard feelings :)

No, no hard feelings at all. I was just stresed that there is a modding the game here- at least I hope it is not you.. Anyway... i posted for some other members ..
They realy like someone to stand on form the firts step -- I dont blame them - I would do worst to myself realy

be well ;)

[Pharnakes]

I would also like to offer my apologies, it seems that I misunderstood what you were saying, and this thread has alway attracted the less thoughtful element of this comunity. My sincere apologies for this unfortunate misunderstanding. Have a ballon and sign a peace treaty.

can't find the right smillie, well have a white flag instead.

[Maksimus]

I would also like to offer my apologies, it seems that I misunderstood what you were saying, and this thread has alway attracted the less thoughtful element of this comunity. My sincere apologies for this unfortunate misunderstanding. Have a ballon and sign a peace treaty.

can't find the right smillie, well have a white flag instead.

Nah... I just hope you find my post after some EB 1 patches an help me with your comments for my EB mod (do that will be on TWC) ..

see you around