catapracht question

[anubis88]

First i just wanna say that i was amazed when i started to play EB... I must say it's much better than RTR wich i thought god-like before i've seen EB..

So here's the question... I'm playing with Seleucia and i wan't to know if i can get the catapratchs and what is the trigger for them? i'm at war with Parthia that is sendning armys of 6 units of their elite catapracht an on VH/VH im gettin quite literally my ass kicked! That's why I would like to know if i can get any cavalry that can stop them.

Thanx in advance

P.S. Where can i recruit elephants? must i conquer the indian settlements?

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

I believe you need to lose a battle against an army that has cataphracts. Your general will probably get a trait like "intrigued by cataphracts" and this will trigger the cataphract reform.

[Ludens]

The cataphract reform hasn't been implemented yet, IIRC. Cataphracts will become available when the vanilla Marian reform is triggered.

I am not sure of the current build, but in EB 0.74 Indian elephants were available in the cities to the east and the south of Baktra, and also in the capital of Epeiros; African forest elephants can be recruited to the west of Carthage and north of the Sahara; and both types of African elephant can be recruited in the three cities south of Egypt.

[anubis88]

so there is no way for me to gain acces to cataprachts? like editing a file or something

[Watchman]

Just wait until the Cata reforms kick in. Kinda noticeable, since every city that can recruit them (I guess) suddenly has a "building" that quite prominently reads "Kataphrakt Reforms" or something to that effect.

[anubis88]

so the reform does work? Becouse i've read in the faq that it doesn't

[Ower]

i'm at war with Parthia that is sendning armys of 6 units of their elite catapracht an on VH/VH im gettin quite literally my ass kicked!

well the reasom why you're getting your ass kicked, is the VH battle difficulty, wich gives each AI unit when facing you +7 (or so) to attack and deffence. eaven a ordinary heavy cavalery could shreed your elit quit strong before faling.

[The Errant]

P.S. Where can i recruit elephants? must i conquer the indian settlements?

Elephants can be recruited in Taksashila, Opiana and Pura in India. Axum, Meroe and Ptolemais-Theron in East Africa and atleast Kirtsan and Ippone in North Africa.

Only the Epirotes can train elephants in Ambrakia.

Here is a map to help you along: https://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?...insmall6dw.gif

[Ludens]

Only the Epirotes can train elephants in Ambrakia.

Here is a map to help you along: https://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?...insmall6dw.gif

Thanks. Incidentally, that map is the old 0.72 map. You can find a map for 0.8 here.

[anubis88]

i know why im getting my ass kicked an i LOVE IT!!!
But i still haven't got a clear answer about the reform and if it does work!

[Enguerrand de Sarnéac]

It's a bit off topic, but anyway...
Pyrrhos was quite famous for his elephants of course; and the Eastern factions (Seleukeia, Baktria) could recruit elephants in certain provinces, and the way of thinking of the Team probably was that Pyrrhos traded his elephants with eastern Diadochi (most probably Arche Seleukeia or the Ptolemaioi). In the same text (by Plutarchus; the main literary source about Pyrrhos) is mentioned that Antigonos of Makedonia also had elephants.

The Gauls who formed the rearguard of Antigonus, a numerous body, made a sturdy resistance; but after a fierce battle most these were cut to pieces, while those who had charge of the elephants were hemmed in and surrendered themselves and all their animals.

I suppose quite a lot of Diadochi had elephants (provided they were nice allies) I even recall from the EB description that elephants were 'commonly' traded between them (if I'm not mistaken).
Perhaps some selected Diadochi (I'm sure there is other literary evidence of elephants) should have the possibility of recruiting elephants in their capital, to symbolize this trade. Better even would be that one only could recruit the beasts if one has the right alliances (through traiting or builing scripting for instance)

Sorry for the comment on this issue, but what I noted seemed like a little awkward. Perhaps I'm even wrong and Makedonia can already recruit elephants
Or am I misinterpreting the text and it was poor Pyrrhos's elephants being captured?

[The Errant]

Sorry for the comment on this issue, but what I noted seemed like a little awkward. Perhaps I'm even wrong and Makedonia can already recruit elephants
Or am I misinterpreting the text and it was poor Pyrrhos's elephants being captured?

No your not wrong. Only the Epirote faction can train elephants in Ambrakia at their highest level MIC. Atleast that's the way it was in 0.8 and I'm pretty sure the team hasen't changed it.

The Seleucids have no immediate access to them either. They and the Baktrians have to conquer one of the Indian provinces to get them. Then upgrade their MICs in those provinces accordingly.

The Carthies have a province with elephants at the start of the game but not the MIC level required to train them. Same goes I think for the Ptolies. I know they can train elephants in Ptolemais-Theron but if they have a sufficiently advanced MIC in place at the start of the game I don't know.

The Diadochi were fond of them. But the first to use them in a large scale was Seleucos. And he had to fight a war and give his daughters hand in marriage to an Indian ruler to get them. The Ptolemies got cut off from the Indian supply when they became enemies of the Seleucids so they had to find an alternative supply. Hence Africa.

Historically those factions had access to them. Pyrrhos was known to have brought the Elephants to Epeiros and systematically spent years and lots of money to try to transplant them successfully so he could have a native supply of the beasts that wasn't dependent on unreliable allies to provide them.

I think that is the reason the elephants are limited. Unless you have a "natural" source of the things, in a world with shifting alliances whatever elephants you get from allies are not a permanent part of your armies makeup. Therefore it's easier and more realistic to make successor factions with access to them. And those without. Besides the elephants are part of what gives the Epirotes flavor. If the Maks had them, the Epirotes might just be a cheap copy of the Great Macedonia. This way the Epirotes are unique of the European powers to use such a monstrosity in battle without the need to conquer some distant provinces to get them.

I suppose you could make them extremely rare mercs in the successor regions, but somehow it dosen't sound right to me. They cost a ton to maintain so they couldn't just quit the service of one army and spend years or even months between jobs. Elephants require a massive military organisation and with a sufficiently large economic base to support them. That excludes nations that have both the money, infrastructure and organisation to keep such resources around in the event they will be needed in an unspecified possible future war.

[Watchman]

But i still haven't got a clear answer about the reform and if it does work!

The reform as planned does not work yet, so there's a placeholder tied to the vanilla Marian reform script thingy. Beats me how exactly that now gets triggered in EB, but usually the reform indicator "buildings" seem to pop up in AS and Baktrian cities within the first couple of decades. They should be able to recruit Kataphraktoi Hellenikoi after that, with high enough MICs of course.

Far as I know, anyway.

[anubis88]

the catapracht reform markers are there from the begining
is there any way around the reform to use catapracht? im reaching 220 bc... it's the time they really used them