New units for SP campaign - Suggestions?

[R'as al Ghul]

Hello,

we've made some major progress with beta_8 and we can now take care of further improvements. One thing that's frequently mentioned is the low number of units that the original Shogun and our mod features.
I do see the point in wanting more units but I also think that the simplicity, the minimalistic variety does offer a special gameplay. We'll restrict the discussion to single player for the time being and only if we discover a very special unit that fits into the balanced gameplay for MP we'll include it there, too.
I'd suggest that everybody posts their suggestions here. I'd be interested in the function you see for the proposed units as well as a techtree recommendations, faction recommendations etc.

Personally, I could imagine a Yumi-Ashigaru unit. It's an authentical unit and is the only one we miss from the historical canon.
Furthermore I think we could use a siege unit. That may be a ranged unit with pavise like shields or even artillery.

R'as

[Puzz3D]

Furthermore I think we could use a siege unit. That may be a ranged unit with pavise like shields or even artillery.

The AI inappropriately uses siege units in field battles.

[TosaInu]

Hello R'as al Ghul,

Siege engines were not used in typical Japanese warfare, trickery, fire and just assault were more common, but they did exist and were used. Ranging from very heavy carriage mounted arquebusses to small canons and bombards.

What Yuuki mentions could prove to be an issue. The Napoleonic TW mods features mobile artillery. Perhaps SamWars should have the mobile mounted arquebus. This can be used in both sieges and battles.

Yumi-ashigaru is authentical indeed, there are more options for units.

[R'as al Ghul]

I've my info from Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook. He mentions all kinds of siege equipment: catapults slinging rocks or thundercrash bombs, ladders, towers, sapping, flooding, setting fire, shooting with arquebuses of various caliber, even mortars, having ninjas open the gates, etc. Most of these tactics can't be considered standard. I think the standard procedure was just sitting it out.

Siege artillery- I know about the problems with that. I guess the only way to reduce this problem may be to set these values to zero:

;BlastRadius Radius in which troops can be killed by a artillery hit on the ground
;BlastKillChance The percentage kill chance of a soldier in the blast radius being killed

and I can make it less likely for the AI to build them. I can not prevent the Ai from using them in a siege field battle.

If we want to use the pavise shields for archers or teppos in sieges then we can perhaps use the dismount function. Iirc, some units are able to dismount in sieges. cegorach has succesfully used this feature for a variety of units in his P&M mod. So, by dismounting, the unit would gain a higher defense. (shield).

A mobile arquebus would be nice.

[barocca]

The good thing with so many of the shogun bifs is the infantry often have multiple combat animation sets,
so you can have more than one unit from a bif with different weapons and different fighting style

I am trying some recolourings, plus Aokubi gave us some infantry already recoloured as well,
all thats is need is weapon modding in those ones...


IDEAS

katana weilding sams would be good,
they would take a fair amount of time to make though,
(we need a volunteer)


ashi archers would be easier,
maybe base them on the ashi-xbow men hidden inside the samurai unit bif in Warlords versions of shogun?
(volunteers??)


ashi's with pole-axe are almost complete
(barocca making - also using different combat action set)


monks with pole-axe would also be good
(barocca gonna try and make em - may take longer than I can afford to spend on them - so someone wanna volunteer i not complain)


monks on horseback - actually may not be too hard,
turkscav and burncav both lend themselves to being monks,
they would simply need sashimono added (copy/paste from existing)
(volunteers??)



NEED MORE IDEAS FOR SAMURAI UNITS



MONGOLS
there are a TON of possible mongol units from the Medieval Bifs, a ton...
ideas??? (unit name and type, weapon, action set and bif please)
mongol, korean, chinese - the "mong" bifs look very chinese to me

[Puzz3D]

Siege artillery- I know about the problems with that... I can not prevent the Ai from using them in a siege battle.

You mean cannot prevent the AI from using artillery in a field battle. The AI would be less formidable in field battles if it's saddled with siege artillery.

If we want to use the pavise shields for archers or teppos in sieges then we can perhaps use the dismount function. Iirc, some units are able to dismount in sieges. cegorach has succesfully used this feature for a variety of units in his P&M mod. So, by dismounting, the unit would gain a higher defense. (shield).

That's an interesting idea. Perhaps these archers which 'dismount' and thereby acquire the pavise in sieges can be designated as artillery so that the AI will use them to shoot fire arrows at the structures. The AI doesn't use fire arrows against troops, so that would work out nicely in field battles. Right now the towers can be destroyed by fire arrows, but not the walls. The walls could be changed to suffer damage by fire.

[TosaInu]

I've my info from Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook. He mentions all kinds of siege equipment: catapults slinging rocks or thundercrash bombs, ladders, towers, sapping, flooding, setting fire, shooting with arquebuses of various caliber, even mortars, having ninjas open the gates, etc.

Yes, they were available and used.

Most of these tactics can't be considered standard. I think the standard procedure was just sitting it out.

Yes. So, limiting siegeweapons is worth to consider.

If we want to use the pavise shields for archers or teppos in sieges then we can perhaps use the dismount function. Iirc, some units are able to dismount in sieges. cegorach has succesfully used this feature for a variety of units in his P&M mod. So, by dismounting, the unit would gain a higher defense. (shield).

Sounds good.

A mobile arquebus would be nice.

The battlefield ninjas has some options. Ninjas did exist, the classic costume was probably used too, they did fight both totally covert and more open in battle. Deception and elite are keywords here. Instead of one odd, stereotypical unit, battlefieldninja could be anything and look like something harmless, just better/more succesfull than you would expect.

-Ninjas disguished as yariashigaru. Use the same sprites. But morale and combatstats would be much higher. The unit can be given an extra trick by giving it a thuderbomb (explosives was something they had and used).
-Ninja teppo. You can make one or more versions: a small unit pretending to be an ordinairy teppo unit, blends in with a gun line (it's possible to adjust the mouseover description?, if not it already adds some chaos in battles).

Or a very skilled individual (very small team) having long range and accuracy. There are handgunner stats and arqs, you could modify the first for a sniper.

About any other unit can be used to make a ninjaunit: smaller size, better stats.

This won't make one unit in twelve different costumes, but several different types. A yari ninja is anti cav, but also fights well against infantry. A sharpshooter ninja can fight, but his specialism is long range shooting.

While this did either exist or could be used like that, it shouldn't color every battle, so it should be limited.

[TosaInu]

That's an interesting idea. Perhaps these archers which 'dismount' and thereby acquire the pavise in sieges can be designated as artillery so that the AI will use them to shoot fire arrows at the structures. The AI doesn't use fire arrows against troops, so that would work out nicely in field battles. Right now the towers can be destroyed by fire arrows, but not the walls. The walls could be changed to suffer damage by fire.

The mobile arq also has a bit of this idea. It would work against the gate/wall, but can be repositioned and act anti-personel.

[Noir]

I once had the idea to make a passive "artillery" piece - this can be based on the higher art's that the MTW AI builds less often than the cheap ones (like the catapult, that is insisting on spamming all the time). This may give the commander the ability to place it at will on the battlefield providing artificial protection - essentially capturing something of raw field fortifications much like the pallisade the Oda/Tokugawa armies erected in Nagashino. It may be proved useful tactically. What comes close to it are the "warwagons" of Cegorach in P&M.

To make it useful to the AI as well, the crew may be archers or teppos.

The pavise idea of Ra's is good and historically accurate/in the spirit of the era - in Kagemusha (the film by AK), the assaulting Takeda troops are advancing towards the walls of Takatenjin castle protected by bamboo/wood panels, placed inclined to provide protection from enemy missiles.

Barocca's idea of standard units wielding different weapons is also interesting: can have Ashigaru Naginata (less heavily armoured) for example, that is also a historically accurate unit.

Another idea is to provide a more "developing" roster to mirror military advances of the period that reflected technology and tactics. For example yari cavalry is an invention that was credited to Takeda Shingen - Yari cavalry essentially fullfiled the role of "modern" skirmishing cavalry like the Hussaria of the Napoleonic era. There are almost no accounts of its use prior to the late Sengoku Jidai (1565- onwards). This may be included, as well as the use of very long yaris ( essentially pikes based on pikemen) and of course guns.

An alternative approach is to use provincial distinctions for the standard units and alter the stats/animations/cards accordngly ie Satsuma - No Dachi, Shinano Yari Cavalry etc.

Another approach would be to personalise rosters for factions (that would be unlocked by certain expensive buildings signifying the acquiring of that technology) for example the Oda may have an Ashigaru based roster with larger than normal units (much like Wes has done for the Muslims/Mongols in MedMod) to signify their emphasis in logistical strength.

The Hoganji clan on the other hand may be consisting of almost exclusively foot units based on a mob/monk combination. Monks may be using guns but without the ability for revolving firing ranks (fire once in a while). Monk archers may be included. Finally the "mob" unit may be a larger than normal unit of multiple fighting abilities ie a combination of yari and naginata say.

All this being nice and fine for a SP game, however the MP game is - if not perfect - very close to it, as far as i am concerned.

[Tomisama]

"katana wielding sams" long overdue, yes!

“ashi archers” might get some use, good.

“shielded teppo” are seen in many battle paintings, I’m sure will be very popular.

“hand cannon” units to destroy walls and gates.
They still practice firing these guns today (have picture but cant get to it right now).

“ronin sam units” very possible I think.

"monks" in any roll, very real!

I don’t know about the axe thing, but their might be both yari and pike units of both ashi and sams.

Some stuff to look at

http://www.geocities.com/nobukaze23/army.htm

http://jgrebet.club.fr/samurai/sam_base.htm

http://japan-cc.com/samurai_figure2.htm

[cegorach]

Good to see this thread. Finally.

When I spoke to R'as al Ghul about the small number of options I hoped for more additions and here they are, very well.

Of course it comes from a kind of 'unit fetishist' or extremist because in my incoming PMTW 2.0 I will have at least 1100 different units....

I am in favour of any additions mentioned above - especially the ninja marksmen - always recall Sekigahara when I think about them.
Small units with much better accuracy and limited to some provinces will add some flavour for sure, perhaps even in the MP, but it is minor issue here.




One word about the limits - the crusader file allows 256 units , but it doesn't include agents, mounts, ships and 'dismounted' options as well as 'custom mode only' units.

In other words units which are recruited in the strategic mode are limited - ONLY those.

For this reason I can safely propose to add 'core' and 'vassal' units idea.

I think that in order to well re-create the complicated situation of the samurai wars it will be reasonable to add entire new set of units to show the difference between easier to get vassals and hard core supporters.

Vassal units would have higher numbers, but weaker morale.

Of course here comes a question how to allow them without too many problems involved.

I think the key issue would be to have new 'buildings' to represent the bonds between families which gradually would grow after some time under 'foreign' reign.

I propose to use the indestructable structures such as 'forest clearing' which would be set at the beginning of a campaign without a possibility to build them at all or with so high requirements that these would appear only in most developed provinces.

I actually believe combining BOTH would be a good thing.

So the structure would represent very important clans or just important regions which would become 'core' supporters' if conquered and the entire rest of the map would be left to potential 'turncoats'.

Now is the question how this would work in the campaign, so here is an example.

A clan starts with one 'core' province (with indestructable 'forest clearing') and two vassal provinces (no such structures). The vassal provinces might become core ones if these are developed to certain level - perhaps by setting castle requirements high enough.
A different solution might be to add faction unique structure called for example Takeda jikishindan ( second word used to describe close followers - I am not sure if only by Takedas, maybe that is a general term) which would take some time to erect and which combined with the 'forest clearing' would allow recruitment of 'core' units.

Anyway the clan expands and conquers new regions where it can only recruit vassal troops - at least untill it develops close ties with their clans, except the 'forest clearing' regions which either immediatelly or after the jikishindan structure is added will become its new 'cores'.

I hope I didn't make the whole thing too complicated to read.;)

Final thing - if space is an issue in the crusader_build files (limited number of buildings) the jikishindan structures might be not faction unique, but same for closely related factions so these might rise 'core' troops from the families they had some strong bonds in the reality.


As suggested icon/info pic I would use faction's mon or combine a couple if the structure will be used by more than one faction.


Of course the system is not perfect, but perhaps will slow down the conquest to some degree showing how complicated could be political life in Japan at that time.




Another use for the 'forest clearing' structure would be to serve as recruitment requirements to faction unique units such as Tokugawa's 'Red Devils' or Takeda's cavalry, but those in my opinion should be limted to certain provinces no matter how close these would become in later years.




Finally addressing the main question.

Perhaps more mercenary-only options such as the Japanese pirates limited to only some provinces - I know that the MTW VI engine allows hiring them very far away from home, but by setting the initial recruitment zone in one province or two these guys wiouldn't appear too often.

Maybe more brigands too - only appearing as bandits or during rebellions ?


And the last thing - maybe some existing units such as Yari Samurai can get 'dismounted' options such as 'katana' samurai making them more interesting to use.

Overall the dismounted options are extremely useful if you want to make certain units unique and as added bonus the dismounted option doesn't take any unit slots as all.


I hope some of these ideas are worth considering.


Regards Cegorach

[barocca]

GOOD ideas - but i dont have the time to make all of them,
gonna need some help here guys...


There is an unused resource included in the hard code that we are going to use for Yamashiro province to make that region produce some unique units
(forest resource)


There are two additional unit folders available in the textures men,
so we can have a massive number of bif files,
(i posted how to activate them in a thread here somehwhere...)
currently we have a couple of folders "in use", that are not.

space is, currently, not a problem.


I have Three versions of ashigaru units colouring,
grey-shirts, (original)-shirts and primary faction colour-shirts

I have also added to their weapon array,
they now have three weapons available to them
(this is an enlarged pic of the array)


Need some ideas for these guys,
we have three types of clothing and weaponry can be scaled up and down,
i have chosen 3 lengths for the yari, and 2 each for the halberd and naginata on the basis of what does, and does not, look too outrageous,

basically there is a "man sized" version, another around 2.5 "man sized" and one yari that is extra long for Late Era Ashigaru.

BUT, whoe gets what colour and what weapons?
do we make some faction specific? and if so who andwhat???
(too many choices....)
(PLEASE please - some ideas....)



Final comment the ashi have several combat animation sets that are not used,
One in particular where the man passes something from one hand to the other behind his back - reminds me of nun-chuk displays i have seen...
anyone want to have a look see if they can work with it?????
(there is still room for one more weapon in the bif file,
MAX SIZE 130 pixels long and 6 pixels deep)
cheers,
B.

[TosaInu]

Hello barocca,

A naginata, that's nice.

The Oda clan had very long (the longest?) pike used by ashigaru. Reserve the longest yari and largest unit for Oda.

Like Noir mentioned, Takeda would do with some cavalry, maybe limit the (better) YC or NC to them? Maybe the BIF can contain some yari variation?

That extra animation could be useful for a disguished ninja (a ball and chain weapon may be hard to animate). There are also slashing animations that fit the naginata.

[cegorach]

There is an unused resource included in the hard code that we are going to use for Yamashiro province to make that region produce some unique units
(forest resource)

Why not use the warrior_hold as industractable resource type structure ?
'Forest' can be kept for something else...

It is more useful than the 'forest' because can attact mercenaries, decrease happiness (which will make the AI to add large garrison force there) etc.

[R'as al Ghul]

I can't possibly answer all points at the moment.

For the laymen among us:
The idea to use the dismount function works so that a unit, once dismounted, completely changes its looks/animations and its combat values. A simple example would be to have the Nodachi as the dismounted version of the Heavy Cavalry. Another feature is that you can determine if the unit can always dismount or only in castle battles.
The pavise shields could therefore be reduced to castle battles.
Similarly, we can have a teppo unit dismount into an artillery piece, restricted to castle battles it won't interfere with classic field battles.
However, I can't predict if the AI will make use of such a unit's ability. I need to test that with a napoleonic or medieval cannon first.

R'as

[CBR]

Yumi Ashigaru could be used in MP. Aren't Samurai Archers already using Katana? It was a Samurai's standard sidearm AFAIK.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

The Hatamoto, Heavy Cav, Cav Archer, Battlefield Ninja and Kensai also have a katana.

[barocca]

Katana Sams

most of the units are old school,
the weapons are permanently attatched,

i can cut some weapons away, but i have never added all the parameters to add new weapons to the units MTW style (all weapons seperate from men) (in short that is not an area i specialise in)


Samurai Archers already use a katana for hand to hand,
but all other animations of them have a bow and quiver in,
so we cannot simply designate them as katana sams unless we go and edit out the bow, the quiver and the shadow,
once you cut them away you have to repair the animation
(and you have to add the katana to standing, walking, running)
if some one wants to have a go please do, but it is a TON of work that i do not have time to do.


Kensai use no-dachi animations, but we have 3 different bif files for no-dachi,
red armour, grey armour and faction coloured armour,

We could designate
No-Dachi as always Red Armour,
Kensai as always Grey Armour,
and Katana Sams as always Faction coloured Armour,

then it would be a simple matter (to make Katana Sams) of go in and shorten the sword for each animation in each frame.

comments/directions??

[CBR]

Im just wondering why there is a need for a Katana Samurai. What role would they have that isn't already filled by current units?


CBR

[barocca]

mostly for single player mode,
there have beena number of requessts for extra unit depth in single player,

so we are seeing what we can do readily with what we have to flesh out the SP roster,


the yari-ashi are finished artwork wise,
now we just need uses for them


EARLY period
Yari ashi, (in faction colours) with weapon#1 all clans
Halberd Ashi, (in Maroon) with Halberd weapon #4 for ODA

HIGH period
Yari ashi, (in faction colours ) with yari weapon #2 all clans
Yari ashi (in Maroon) with yari weapon size #3 for ODA (enhanced anti-cav stats)
Nagi ashi, (in faction colours ) with Nagi weapon #6 all clans
Halberd Ashi, (in grey) with Halberd weapon #4 for REBELS

LATE period
Yari ashi (in faction colours ) with yari weapon size #3 for all clans (enhanced anti-cav stats - but not as good as Oda)
Halberd Ashi, (in faction colours ) with Halberd weapon #4 for all clans

cheers
B.

[Puzz3D]

There is some space between YA and YS to put in some new YA units. The YA are faster than YS, but lower morale and armor.

YA (cost 200) -2 melee and +8 vs cav (existing)
YA (cost 300) -2 melee and +10 vs cav (new)
YA (cost 300) +0 melee and +10 vs cav (new)
YA (cost 400) +0 melee and +12 vs cav (new)
YS (cost 400) +2 melee and +12 vs cav (existing)

We also have available a bow stat that could be used for the yumi ashigaru.

There is room between no-dachi and naginata for a sword unit (katana infantry) which has more balance between its offensive and defensive capabilities than no-dachi or naginata. The price of the naginata should be raised to 800. The melee cav HC, YC and NC are also priced too low and should be raised.

ND (cost 600) +3 melee, armor 1, speed 12 (existing)
KI (cost 700) +4 melee, armor 3, speed 10 (new)
NI (cost 800) +6 melee, armor 5, speed 8 (existing)
WM (cost 900) +7 melee, armor 1, speed 12 (existing)

YC and this new KI would be equal in melee, but the YC should be able to beat it with a good charge. NC would beat it fairly easily. This relationship between YC and KI would be very similar to the relationship between NC and NI. Likewise, HC beats NI. HC also beats WM which is why the cost of HC at 800 is much too low. I would say a better cost structure for the melee cav would be NC 900, YC 950 and HC 1000 or even NC 900, YC 1000 and HC 1100.

These costs are SP costs. The MP costs of some units are different because they were empirically adjusted to improve playbalance in MP.

[Tomisama]

Hand Cannon Practice

[Tomisama]

Im just wondering why there is a need for a Katana Samurai. What role would they have that isn't already filled by current units?


CBR

For a moment consider the kensai, not as an impossible giant fantasy lone superman, but as a real sword master. The master accompanied by his student entourage could compose a samurai sword unit. This unit would have the armour of the yari sam, and the fervor of a warrior monk. The no-dachi figure could possibly be modified to create this very formidable, and I believe reasonably realistic new unit.

[barocca]

nice ideas all round puzz


Tomisama
- hand cannons - not hard, simply grab the yarisam bif from a Warlords copy,
and make the little black x-bowmen in it into handcannon bif,
(cutaway/mod the xbow they carry)

BUT they have NO h2h animation,

SIMPLE FIX, copy the H2H animation From the Musket bif into the new handcannon bif,
REMEMBER to reduce the size of the anim characters from the musket bif as you import,
and remember to use nearest neighbour as the resample method for reduction.

AND they have no "face flash" when cannon goes off - similar method to above might work...

it's more work than i have time for at the moment,

Who wants to give it a shot??


(and i want yumi-ashi, i just do not have the time to make em...)

[R'as al Ghul]

barocca,

when we make different eras, we could have different unit sizes.
Tosa suggests that the late ashi units should be larger than in early and perhaps the CA smaller in late. It would reflect a change of battlefield tactics.

I also noticed that readbif has problems to load the animation rectangle for the naginata bif. There's another unit that also gives me an error.
I was trying to find out which animation sequences are unused.

R'as

[barocca]

an error? (the nagi dont normally use the rolling weapon animation)
is that what you mean??

[R'as al Ghul]

Im just wondering why there is a need for a Katana Samurai. What role would they have that isn't already filled by current units?
CBR

We all know that you want wardogs. You can as well admit it.

[barocca]

readbif says
" is not a valid integer

ok, any character (or string of characters) that RSW did not think to program into readbif will generate that error,
fight, run, charge etc will BE recognised,
i think fight2 will even be recognised,

but "new fight" or even "//" will generate that error



hmm - now if that was a hotdog in armour it would be even funnier....
(gimme a wardog with extra relish...)

cheers
B.

[Puzz3D]

I can see adding a few units to SP, and maybe even a couple to MP like the yumi ashi or a sword unit between no-dachi and naginata, but the engine doesn't support a large number of significantly different units. You can make lots of combinations of attack/defense stats, but the AI is only looking at the attack+defense and comparing that to the attack+defense of the enemy unit, so that limits the number of units that to the AI are significantly different. We have the 60 man infantry units (not including teppo) at -2, 0, 2, 3, 6, and 7. The units at 3 and 7 have high charge, so they are closer to 4 and 8 in performance which would give an effective distribution of -2, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8. You can see that the balance achieved in the unitset has a mathematical basis. Likewise, the 60 man cav units are at 1, 4, 6 and 8. It's possible that the cav unit at 1 could be moved to 2. The cav unit at 4 has +4 anti-cav making it equal the top cav at 8. Again there is a uniform mathematical sequence here. The unit at 4 was originally at 5 with a +5 anti-cav, but it's performance in multiplayer resulted in the adjustment to 4 with +4 anti-cav. (This has to be fixed in the SO stat because it's still set to +5 anti-cav.) So, you can see that the value arrived at empirically is also more uniformly placed mathematically. You can't slip significantly different units inbetween those because a diffence of 1 combat point will only result in a win 6 out of 10 times.

Pavise units would be fine for sieges because then the towers could be knocked out with fewer losses to the ranged units. Right now it's very costly for the attacker to take out a tower with archers, but I can't reduce the strength of the towers without making it too easy to knock them out with a melee unit. However, I don't think the AI will use these pavise units against the structures unless they are designated as artillery units.

[TosaInu]

The VI stat does allow several though, certainly for SamWars where only a dozen are used at this moment.

VI easily allows to create 100 or more unique battleunits when all options are used. The <10% balancing required for MP will be hard though.