militia hoplites vs levy pikemen

[rs2k2]

So I've been checking up on different forums and I realized that people always choose militia hoplites over levy pikemen. Why is that? I always go up to levy if I can. Sure, their shield is only 2 compared to the hoplites' 5, but there are 50% more of them and they have longer pikes, which means an additional row of attackers. That, and the fact that they have an attack rating of 6 vs the hoplites' 5.

Now, if I'm being shot at by arrows all day, hoplites would be far better, but against hastati or other hoplites, I'd feel a lot better with the longer pikes.

So convince me that militia hoplites are better.

[professorspatula]

I agree with you when it comes to Levy Pikemen. If left on guard mode to stand there, they can usually hold their own for a bit, and are better at blocking streets during siege battles. That said, I'm sure phalanx formations break up much easier than they used to, so they're pretty hopeless in hand to hand, worse than the hoplites.

I can't remember, but I think the upkeep per unit works out the same, so you might as well have a 240 man unit (based on huge setting) than a 160 man unit for garrison duties.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Hi rs2k2,
I generally agree with you on most accounts. However, I do believe that, against the all-powerful Hastaii, the humble Militia Hoplites probably have a much better chance. This is due to the strong volly of almighty Pilla which the Hastatii throw before entering combat - it really can cause very serious damage to anything with very small shields such as the disadvantaged phalanx.

[professorspatula]

Yes, but the AI Hastati usually throw just one volley before charging your phalanx, and even then there should be more pikemen left over than there would be hoplites. When the Hastati charge, a lot more of them probably end up impaled on the end of the pikemen's spears as well. I haven't used standard vanilla RTW stats for ages, but anyway, the levy pikemen can be spread out much further (just 4-5 ranks deep) so they present a wider front to the Hastati et al, thus preventing the enemy infantry from wrapping around their ranks and killing them that way. It's often the way phalanx units end up dying - not from the centre, but from the sides. Of course, against multiple enemies and lots of missile troops, you probably would prefer hoplites as levy pikemen are indeed like pincushions in that respect.

[guineawolf]

i choose militia hoplites coz they survive better when they get shot by archers.And they can fight better at the wall than levy pikeman when it is needed.But if you are guarding the street,i would suggest levy pikemen coz the longer pike,and enemy will have no way to flank them,except get another route to get behind them,or take them down by arrows..

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Sorry professorspatula, yet I was thinking more about in an attack when the AI turns the Hastatii's "fire at will" mode on. There is three throws worth of almighty pilla with them which could easily devastate the poor quality levy pikemen and lower their already poor quality morale. Unfortunately, against poor quality units, the Hastatii's pilla seems to have the tendency to cause them to route before the units even enter melee combat.

[rs2k2]

I'm pretty sure the hastati/principes only have 2 pila but I forgot that while there may be more men than the hoplites, the pikemen would suffer a greater morale loss.

[mightilyoats]

Hastati and Pricipes (all legionaires) have 6 shots. If you attack an enemy unit with them, they will throw two volleys, then charge for melee. After the enemy routes your unit will still have ammo left to charge again.

The best way to use legions against phalanxes is to set your legions to fire at will. Then go close enough for them to be in range and allow your legions to throw all of their pila. That really wreaks havoc. Alot of enemy units will rout just because of that.

If you don't allow your units to throw their spears, I think the match between hastati and militia hoplites can be quite close. Same goes for levy pikes.

**On the same topic:
Has anyone noticed that if you order your phalanx (any phalanx) to attack an enemy. After the enemy is engaged, you order your unit to halt. They will then all lower their spears and lots of enemy men will die. Then you order them to attack the enemy unit again, for the same effect. Order them to halt again etc. Works very well on heavy cav that has broken your phalanx formation.

[professorspatula]

No, all legionaries etc have 2 pila. Skirmishers have 6 shots. Occasionally a legionary unit may appear to throw 2 volleys, then throw some more, but that's only because a few of the soldiers didn't throw their pila in the first place. In BI, the Plumbatarii have nearly a dozen darts which makes them ridiculously overpowered when used at heavy skirmishers.

The AI will seldom use fire at will mode with legionary type units. They nearly always launch a volley then charge. Sometimes they pull back or fire again at point blank range, but I've never really seen them use them like a human player does. This is why if you have a legionary versus legionary battle against the AI with the same numbers of units on both sides, you should triumph easily.

Of course levy pikemen can rout when they face a storm of pila, but so can militia hoplites, and when battles does commence, I'd prefer pikes to short hoplite spears. Both units are only low grade fodder, so they should never be relied upon not to rout anyway. Perhaps the hoplites have some attributes that makes them better, but as it stands, levy pikemen are probably the best garrison unit in the game (peasants don't count because they're stupid and not really combat troops anyway).


As to the phalanx attacking thing and halting etc, really they never did make phalanx combat right. Even after several patches you can see your units march backwards when ordered to attack, or they turn the wrong way round completely. Best yet is when an enemy phalanx unit breaks up with men doing backflips 200 yards away. The AI then tries to reform the unit by repeatedly going in and out of phalanx mode, even when being attacked. It's beyond daft.

[mightilyoats]

Alright I appologize for the 6 pila slip-up. At work right now and couldn't check my facts...

I guess giving 6 pila would have made them way too powerfull.

Which has better morale? Militia hoplites or levy pikes? I think that might be clincher.

[professorspatula]

They both have the same morale: 2. It took me a while to find a backup of the original RTW unit files. Wow, I forgot how low morale is set as default. Even Spartans only have 14 morale. I find units with 8 morale can break instantly under a heavy pila barrage. Whatever were CA thinking with their insta-rout battles?

[mightilyoats]

So, the only real advantage that levy pikes have is in numbers... Maybe we should test it in a custom battle. Let them duke it out and see who wins. Maybe make their numbers the same. Or, let them fight Hastati (which seems to be the benchmark unit) I will try it tonight (at home) and will come back here tomorrow if there is anything worth telling.

[professorspatula]

On level ground the levy pikemen should win every time against milita hoplites. Providing you're playing as the pikemen. The key to pikemen victories against hoplites (even superior ones) is to have them sit there on guard mode and be defensive. That way they don't advance and that helps keep the enemy units at bay. If you elect to attack, the pikemen close in on the enemy, the phalanx becomes messy and you've really lost your advantage of having longer spears. I don't know how much 1 on 1 battles have changed for hoplite units in 1.5, but before Silver Shield Pikemen could beat Spartans every time just by sitting there.

Against hastati, I think the levy pikemen could win. It's sometimes hard to test 1 on 1 battles because the AI often loves to try and flank your unit, which means you have to constantly turn your phalanx unit to face them and when you do clash, your phalanx is out of position. Sometimes having another unit or two far beyond the unit you're testing helps. The hastati unit will then probably just walk in a straight line towards the unit you're testing.

[mightilyoats]

I did a quick test last night. I played battles on medium difficulty. Large unit size.

Militia hoplites vs. Hastati: (formation: 4 deep)
Placed the hoplites in 4 deep formation, phalanx, defend. I simply let the Hastati attack. No intervention from me. The Hastati kicked their butts. This happened because the hastati spilled around the edges and basically flanked the hoplites.

Militia Hoplites vs. Hastati (Formation: 2 deep)
Placed Militia same as before, except the formation was only two rows deep. Thus the longest possible battle line. The hoplites won by a very big margin. **Heroic victory!!**

Militia Hoplites vs. Levy Pikemen: (I control Pike men: Formation: 4 deep)
Pikemen set as above with a 4 deep formation. Pikes kicked hoplite butts by big margin. (probably because of longer pikes). It was a real slaughter. No contest.

Levy Pikes vs. Hastati: (Formation: 4 deep)
Levy pikes win by big margin. The only real casualties was from the pila thrown by the Hastati before the charge. Very few casualties after that.

I was satisfied by this. I prefer Levy Pikes from here on. The lack in armor is offset by the number of men in the unit as well as the length of the pikes.

Levy Pikes pwn Militia Hoplites! Thats why you can only get them if you have a militia baracks.

[Poulp']

try to pit 2 units of Levy pikemen versus 1 of spartan hoplites

as long as the spartans do not switch to hand to hand fighting, your levy pikemen stand a fair chance.

[rs2k2]

Sweet, that means that I did the right thing in upgrading my militia hoplites to levy pikemen.

[mightilyoats]

Yep, that's what I would have done. Militia hoplites are the best militia units in the game (imo), but that doesn't mean I want them in my army...

[Jobst_vonGrünungen]

Levy pikes are a poor substitute for the next tier pikemen, but better than militia in an actual battle. For garrison Levy pikes are too expensive to recruit. I like to use the levy pikes on the flanks of a group of proper pikes, say four units of proper pikes in the middles and two units of levy on either side. Archers behind and the general to ride down the broken enemies.

I have been very disappointed by levy pikes in the past, mostly due to moral. As long as you keep in mind that levy pikes are not great troops, they can hold their own when well supported. Milita Hoplites are not very useful, in my experience. I only use them in an open battle if I don't have enough normal hoplites or pikes (as seleucids). It's been my experience that htey really don't hold up well. In a siege though, particularly with wooden walls Militia Hoplites are quite useful, but even there levys are better.

I have had three units of Militia Hoplites hold up 6-8 units of eastern infantry and a parthian general in a siege where they knocked a hole in the wooden wall with a ram, I line up the hoplites right in front of where the hole would be, and they then charged into the hoplites' spear-wall, dying by the bucket-load. I lost less than half of my ONE Militia Hoplite unit, and their entire army routed with 80% casualties.

[Poulp']

Levy pikes are a poor substitute for the next tier pikemen, but better than militia in an actual battle. For garrison Levy pikes are too expensive to recruit.

I don't understand your point, searching in my vanilla files, I find:
Militia Hoplites: 230/100 and Levy Pikemen: 310/120
now, it takes 3 militia units to do the work of 2 levies, so it will cost you 690/300 vs 620/240 denarii.
That matters only if you don't use peasant as garrison though.

I like to use the levy pikes on the flanks of a group of proper pikes, say four units of proper pikes in the middles and two units of levy on either side. Archers behind and the general to ride down the broken enemies.

On the contrary, I usually deploy my levies in the centre, with a few spare ranks to soak up casualties and I protect their flank with royal/silvershield pikemen (or any high morale mercs). The reason why is because if the levies are flanked, they end up routing sooner than later and my line is crumbling before I can help. When dealing with cheap spear, I prefer to have them fighting with their spear rather than their sword. (a field in which they do suck harder)

[Jobst_vonGrünungen]

I don't understand your point, searching in my vanilla files, I find:
Militia Hoplites: 230/100 and Levy Pikemen: 310/120
now, it takes 3 militia units to do the work of 2 levies, so it will cost you 690/300 vs 620/240 denarii.
That matters only if you don't use peasant as garrison though.

You mean numerically? I thought I remembered being shocked at how expensive Levy Pikes were in relation to their usefulness (Or lack thereof), but I havent played RTW in a while and Seleucids in forever.

On the contrary, I usually deploy my levies in the centre, with a few spare ranks to soak up casualties and I protect their flank with royal/silvershield pikemen (or any high morale mercs). The reason why is because if the levies are flanked, they end up routing sooner than later and my line is crumbling before I can help. When dealing with cheap spear, I prefer to have them fighting with their spear rather than their sword. (a field in which they do suck harder)

I havent played far enough in the Seleucid campaign to get Silver Shields. I personally prefer to put the better troops in the center, because the AI usually does the same and a broken center is less than ideal, but theres probably some merit to keeping the levys from breaking. Usually when I fight with a battle line of three normal Pikes and two units of levies on either side the enemy's battle line is less than half as long as mine, and therefore it's nearly impossible that they will be able to flank. I suppose the first time I lose miserably because of the levies being on the flanks I will rethink my strategy.

[Poulp']

sorry I forgot to explain what the figures were. It stands for recruitment cost / upkeep cost.

The figures I gave are from vanilla 1.0 so I might be wrong; I have modded the unit's cost to suit my views in my 1.5 game. Levies are now more expensive to maintain to represent the effect of keeping farmers into your army while they should better be in the fields.

On the contrary, I usually deploy my levies in the centre, with a few spare ranks to soak up casualties and I protect their flank with royal/silvershield pikemen (or any high morale mercs). The reason why is because if the levies are flanked, they end up routing sooner than later and my line is crumbling before I can help.

That's part of my favorite tactic; let the opponent be drawn into my weak center while I fold my line and envelop the army on both flanks.
Whether I flanked them or not, when the enemy troops pushing my center are spent, I send my reserve in (peltasts/legionnaries/whatever shock troops I have)