Virginia Tech shooting

[Crazed Rabbit]

A few notes:

GUNS ARE BANNED ON CAMPUS (and on mine, everything down to airsoft guns are too).
As with most college campuses, having a gun on campus will get you expelled.

Slightly over a year ago, a bill in the Virginia legislature that would have let people who have a license to carry a concealed pistol (meaning a fingerprinting and FBI background check at the minimum) carry their weapon on university grounds got shot down. http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

Virginia Tech had this to say:

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Too bad feeling safe doesn't transfer to being safe in reality.

The ninnies who insisted on disarming the students, thinking idiotically that with a stroke of a pen, they magically prevent bad people from carrying guns for nefarious purposes, share some of the blame for setting up this situation.

If they had not disarmed all the victims, this might have gone very differently.

CR

[Scurvy]

The big controversy over this will be that 2 people were initially killed in a dorm building, but the school didn't stop classes and there was nothing like a lockdown since the killer was supposed to have been off campus. It was only a majority of the killings occurred 2 hours later when the person started shooting in the engineering building.

I don't care if the killer has gotten away, 2 students have died on school property in a dorm housing 900 people, I would at least stop classes for the day which might have prevented the later massacre

would it be possible to stop classes that quickly? 900 people are a lot to communicate too, and it seemed at the time as though the incident was over, i can't think of an incident where their have been 2 seperate shootings --> any action tkane like closing the school could also have negative consequecnes, it would cause much uneeded panic, especially as these things tend to get exagerated etc..

basically, it's easy to criticise with the benefit of hindsight...

If something positive and long lasting does come out of this then good. I'm fed up with in every walk of like empty platitudes for a few days / weeks then everything returns to how it was before.

--> sadly it will soon be forgotten...

GUNS ARE BANNED ON CAMPUS (and on mine, everything down to airsoft guns are too).
As with most college campuses, having a gun on campus will get you expelled.

Is this generally adhered too? (rules are too often broken)

If they had not disarmed all the victims, this might have gone very differently.

lets just have 200 people with guns instead of 2, thats really going to solve the problem of shootings....

[Crazed Rabbit]

Is this generally adhered too? (rules are too often broken)

Yes. Rules were you get kicked out of college (have fun applying to the next one!) are generally listened to.

lets just have 200 people with guns instead of 2, thats really going to solve the problem of shootings....

You assume the false logical premise that gun ownership or prevalence increases the level of violence.
Good people do not become crazy psychos when they pick up a gun, picking up a piece of metal doesn't alter the chemicals in their brains and make them lash out.

And yes, having the students at VT armed would have helped - they could have fought back. Instead, the shooter had thousands of unarmed potential targets, and could freely attack them without fear of retaliation.

EDIT: Michelle Malkin has an email from a student at VT on her blog ( http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007319.htm ):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Dear Michelle,

I was in Norris Hall today when the shootings took place. I thought I'd give you my account in case you wanted more information.

It was just a regular day in class; the door was open and we heard a pop-pop-popping noise. Sounded like some kind of construction but it was getting disruptive so we went to close the door, and one of the girls stepped out in the hallway to see what it was. She saw the gun and ran back inside the room and slammed the door shut and we all got down on the floor.

We heard pretty much continuous shooting for the next minute or so, and I said, "Shouldn't we barricade the door," because we were sitting ducks with no way out inside that room if he opened the door. A couple more people floated the idea that "We need to barricade the door, NOW." But I was too scared to even move, much less move the teacher's desk.

Finally one of the guys in the front of the classroom was brave enough to get up and move the desk in front of the door to prevent outside entry. About twenty seconds later, the shooter rattled the doorknob trying to get in. When he couldn't get in he fired two shots through the door (single solid piece of wood) and left. We heard him go in to 206 (the room across the hall) and shoot the people in that room. If we hadn't put the barricade up when we did, I and all my classmates would be dead.

When the police arrived five minutes later we heard them call for him to surrender his weapon and some more, irregular shots. Another five minutes later the police knocked and yelled "Police!" and we yelled "How do we know?" and when a second voice confirmed that it was in fact police, we opened the door. An officer came in and told us to line up single file, take nothing with us (I grabbed my coat) and run out the door single file while another officer escorted us.

We entered the hallway. Blood, bullet casings, and empty pistol clips were everywhere; this was definitely the most horrifying sight of my entire life. We ran past quickly. A door to the stairwell had been opened and there was a massive trail of blood; we found out later that a class had tried to escape only to find that the monster had chained the doors shut before starting his rampage. They were all killed.

We all ran to a nearby building and stayed there until we could be processed, and that was the end of it. Thank you all for your concerns and prayers, but please mostly pray for those who were seriously injured or hurt today.

Also, let me say that the response from the campus, local, and state police was exemplary. Within five minutes of the first shots, police were gathering outside. In another ten minutes, the threat had been neutralized and the building was secure. My heartfelt gratitude goes out to the brave men and women who kept us safe today.

--Jacob Simmons
junior, Computer Engineering, Virginia Tech

Good God. Sounds like the police response when the second shootings started was good.

Crazed Rabbit

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is this generally adhered too? (rules are too often broken)

Having taught for 7 different colleges over the course of 20 years, I can say that the answer is, for the most part, yes.

Numerous small pocket knives/nail clippers are carried and nobody ran around prohibiting people from having decorative letter openers, so the ban wasn't absolute, but I was aware of only one gun on campus (and that was carried unloaded with a trigger lock in place by an off-duty police officer who'd forgotten to put it in her lock-box in the trunk of her car).


Rabbit:

I'm not sure that weapons in the hands of students would have helped (though the ones with the discipline to get the concealed permits are often the most responsible owners). Shooting is one thing, shooting accurately under high-stress situations is another, and all the guns in the world are pretty valueless unless the shooter can hit a target under those conditions.

Of course, my solution would be to make gun ownership and training mandatory, so our USA gun-haters wouldn't like my solution.

EDIT: just read your latest post. The quick-thinking chap in the front of the room should have about 20 other sets of parents chipping in for his education for the next year or two til he graduates. Lacking a gun, he did everything right during a crisis.

Okay, yeah, maybe if that one had been armed, the shots going back out through the door might have ended it earlier.

[KukriKhan]

Let's all maintain some sense of decorum on behalf of the dead and bereaved.

Today is not the time to dissect pro- and anti-gun arguments. Let's wait a day or two, until more details emerge, and families have had time to bury their dead.

[Csargo]

I found a nice long fact-sheet on school schootings from the Chicago Sun-Times which includes an anaysis done by the Secret Service. It turns out shooters usually don't 'snap' and they don't have a 'history' either that allows for profiling.

If you ask me, Michael Moore was bang on in that movie. Canadians own about as many guns as Americans, yet make far less use of them because their society is different, infinitely more relaxed. There is a Hobbesian aspect to American society that goes a long way toward explaining these occurrences, I think.

I always have problems expressing my views, which is why I rarely visit this place. I ment that usually something happens which pushes the person to plan something like this. People usually don't just randomly shoot up places for the hell of it there's always a reason behind it whether we find out about it afterwards or they take it to the grave.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Indeed, Ichigo.

A interview with one of the victims:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=67f_1176750363&o=1

Apparently, he just walked in to that classroom, shot 10-15 people, then left. Students barred the doors, which was good, because he tried to get in again, shooting through the door, but couldn't get in.

CR

[The Spartan (Returns)]

God bless them. 20+ wounded i believe?

[Gregoshi]

What a sad day. It was horrible seeing the death count go up during the afternoon. With so many dead, it is hard to believe this was just some Joe Blow who picked up a couple of guns and started shooting. I'm sure tomorrow will reveal who the killer was, but the "why" may take a little longer.

[Csargo]

Indeed, Ichigo.

I don't know if your agreeing with my post or not. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm agreeing, Ichigo.

With so many dead, it is hard to believe this was just some Joe Blow who picked up a couple of guns and started shooting.

That's what I thought, too. Heck, I thought 22 was high.

CR

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I'm agreeing, Ichigo.



That's what I thought, too. Heck, I thought 22 was high.

CR

It sounds like he planned it and knew what he was doing.

I'm doubtful it would have been different if guns had been allowed on campus. Who would carry their gun to class? Guy had body armor anyway.

[KukriKhan]

In keeping with our usual Backroom protocol, as details come in (like body armor, weapon used, etc), please provide links, so our fellow readers know we're not making things up or merely spreading rumors.

We're a smart bunch of fellows here; let's help each other, and our readers, gain some perspective. Covering the coverage, and drilling down to salient issues, is what we do best here. Let's show our stuff.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It sounds like he planned it and knew what he was doing.

I'm doubtful it would have been different if guns had been allowed on campus. Who would carry their gun to class? Guy had body armor anyway.

I know some guys who'd carry guns to class.

Would it had made a difference? I can't say it would've for sure - but it would've been a chance to stop this before so many were killed, even if it was a small chance.
VT stopped permit holders from carrying, supposedly thinking they can somehow prevent stuff like this, but this proves that such a rule won't do crap against people who are going to harm others.

CR

[Sasaki Kojiro]

In keeping with our usual Backroom protocol, as details come in (like body armor, weapon used, etc), please provide links, so our fellow readers know we're not making things up or merely spreading rumors.

We're a smart bunch of fellows here; let's help each other, and our readers, gain some perspective. Covering the coverage, and drilling down to salient issues, is what we do best here. Let's show our stuff.

http://cbs11tv.com/education/local_story_106164729.html

Shooter described as "heavily armed and wearing a vest". People say different things about his weapons. Either two 9 mm's, a 9 mm and a .22... or a 9mm and a 22 mm (snicker).

[Adrian II]

@ Ichigo. The Chicago-Sun Times report certainly vindicates your view that shooters are often bullied, tormented types. The fact that their anger and despair build up over a period of time is said to be a good thing, it means that sometimes a proactive policy will filter them out.

@ Seamus Your point about Hobbes is noted. I have an unpredictable schedule today and I'm off to catch a train right now, but I will get back to you.

[Fragony]

I would say a cultural influence on crazy people tends to make these things happen more in the US...

Maybe things are a bit simpler then that, USA has somewhat more space where these things may occur, I mean it's bigger then all countries in Europe combined. How long has it been since Columbine? Let's not act as if there is a trend of some sort.

[Csargo]

@ Ichigo. The Chicago-Sun Times report certainly vindicates your view that shooters are often bullied, tormented types. The fact that their anger and despair build up over a period of time is said to be a good thing, it means that sometimes a proactive policy will filter them out.

@ Seamus Your point about Hobbes is noted. I have an unpredictable schedule today and I'm off to catch a train right now, but I will get back to you.

Aye, sorry I didn't make my views clearer in the first place.

[naut]

Very sad indeed.

Fox news is full of bollocks, not much new there though. They believe the following: "he came from a Socialist country and was offended by Western decadence so decided to kill 32 people" and "being an immigrant makes you more susceptible to psychological disorders and violence"; utter garbage.

[Csargo]

Very sad indeed.

Fox news is full of bollocks, not much new there though. They believe the following: "he came from a Socialist country and was offended by Western decadence so decided to kill 32 people" and "being an immigrant makes you more susceptible to psychological disorders and violence"; utter garbage.

It actually said that?

[Del Arroyo]

If suiciders start becoming a common problem, perhaps we should start killing their families as retaliation. Not their *whole* families, mind you, just their parents, (ex)-wives and any offspring. Perhaps adult siblings, too. That would make them think twice before going berserk.

[Sheep]

This wasn't a terrorist attack man.

[Andres]

My condolences to the family and friends of the victims.

And my condolences to the family and friends of the shooter as well. It's hard to lose a relative/good friend, must be even harder to learn your son/brother/best friend did something that horrible before dying...

Can't say much more than that right now.

[naut]

It actually said that?

Yep, I kid you not.

[Ignoramus]

It is very sad that things like this happen.

Sadly, we will never be able to prevent it. Since modern guns have been invented, it's very difficult to stop a madman armed with one.

[Tribesman]

Measures must be taken to prevent further tragedies of this nature .
Stop school shootings , ban schools .

[PanzerJaeger]

It actually said that?

No.

[edyzmedieval]

ban schools .

We have a deal Tribe.

[sapi]

EDIT: After reading the backstory to this thread, I'm not getting involved in the debate.

My condolences to the friends and family of those affected.

[Major Robert Dump]

Frags claims the shooter was an immigrant are no longer unsubstantiated.