Do you think Scotland will secede?

[JR-]

lol, but i don't think they'd swing for it.

[Romanus]

Thank you. I actually understand that, the average guy in Liverpool had if anything less representation than we did back in 1775. But the representation he did receive, at least at that point, was typically through his local lord in the house of parliment. How come the crown never handed out titles like "Duke of Boston", "Earl of Charleston", etectera? From what I understand, it would have solved multiple problems... Parliment almost bankrupted the nation paying for the French and Indian War (or as you call it, the Seven Years War). Why didn't Parliment just follow the time honored from of military salary: land grants to the common soldiers and peerages to the higher ranking officers?

I guess what I'm asking is if there is some reason why peerages to England's possesions were never handed out. Not just here in the Colonies, but why no Earl of Gibraltar? No Count of Malta?

There are a few baronets in Canada, and a couple of heriditary peers. I also remember reading about a baronet of New York somewhere. But that title would have become defunct when the rebels took over.

[Duke Malcolm]

I think I read in Niall Ferguson's "Empire" that they tried a kind of hereditary aristocracy in the American Colonies, with the Lords Proprietors and other such offices. This didn't work too well, I believe, and they opted for Colonial assemblies and congresses.

[JR-]

good book.

[English assassin]

Do any of the Scots/ scotland residents on the board have a view as to whether support of the SNP would actually translate into votes for independence at a referendum?

I really struggle with understanding the mindset. Voting SNP to annoy Tony Blair/because you believe they really will wave the magic socialist money wand and make everything wonderful, that I can understand. But independence? Why?

If Scottish nationhood was groaning under the jackboot of chortling English imperialists, fine. But every time I go to Scotland the Scottish national identity appears to be very much alive and well and picking fights, in a way I sometimes rather wish we were allowed to do in England. What actually would being independent add to the mix?

From south of the border, if I think about it at all, which I don't, I rather wish Scotland would go independent. We'd pay less tax, never have a labour government again, and at least the faint midge-like buzz of resentment drowning over the border from Alex Salmond would have to stop. I like Scotland and I like Scots as much as anyone else I have met, but I don't need to be in a political union with them for any of that. I'm sure I'd still be allowed to go walking in the highlands. So, if we are allowed to play the nationalist "what's in it for me?" game, well, "what's in it for me?"

[Duke Malcolm]

Do any of the Scots/ scotland residents on the board have a view as to whether support of the SNP would actually translate into votes for independence at a referendum?

Almost certainly. People who are for independence rarely care about the actual policies of SNP, and simply vote for them.

I really struggle with understanding the mindset. Voting SNP to annoy Tony Blair/because you believe they really will wave the magic socialist money wand and make everything wonderful, that I can understand. But independence? Why?

1. It's not just to annoy Tony Blair -- some people just don't like Labour now, but can't vote Tory (because they're Scottish). It is also slightly psychological in that a lot (probably a proportionate number) of media and government spokesmen are English, so Government = English.
2. SNP are not really socialist, just a bit rose-tinted...

The independence part is almost entirely anglo-phobic. The current surge in support is most likely due to Braveheart. There is also the lack of anything really holding us together now. In 1707 Scotland was quite poor after the Darien Scheme and an English moratorium on trade with the Scots. Union would afford us the protection of the Royal Navy and allow trade with the colonies. Then there was the Empire. Now, nothing.

[Louis VI the Fat]

From south of the border, if I think about it at all, which I don't, I rather wish Scotland would go independent. We'd pay less tax, never have a labour government again, and at least the faint midge-like buzz of resentment drowning over the border from Alex Salmond would have to stop. I like Scotland and I like Scots as much as anyone else I have met, but I don't need to be in a political union with them for any of that. I'm sure I'd still be allowed to go walking in the highlands.

It's so funny that you should say that. Sometimes, sneakily, I hope at least one of the more annoying of all those 'opressed' minorities in Europe will get a just exactly what they bargained for.

Nowadays, it's the centres of countries that are asking themselves 'what's in it for us anyway'. In the good old days, you could embellish your capital with the spoils of plunder and exploitation of the outer rim. But not in a democracy. So what's the point of putting up with them?

If they want to be independent, well be my guest. Corsica, Brittanny, the Basque country, overseas departments - well leave if you must. Carelevel: zero. By all means rid me of your incessant whining coming my way and my subsidies going your way.


* feels much relieved *

Gah! Why was I not born a narrow-minded conservative nationalist. Life is so much simpler, more fun this way.

[scotchedpommes]

If your 'carelevel' is so minimal, why leave us that to read?

The independence part is almost entirely anglo-phobic. The current surge in support is most likely due to Braveheart.

Do you honestly believe that, Malcolm, or are you just taking to exaggeration
again? Surely you have to see it's stretching it a bit to put it down to Mel
Gibson's mince.

As for EA's question, I've said no before to the question of apparent support
turning to votes in a referendum, and I would still say it. I don't see it even
coming to that - even if the SNP do assert that they have more support in this
area than all other parties combined, I'm struggling to see it.

[English assassin]

As for EA's question, I've said no before to the question of apparent support turning to votes in a referendum, and I would still say it.

That's what I would hope/guess. Personally, I can't see any necessary connect between being/voting nationalist and wanting independence (assuming, as I said, that your national identify is not being squashed).

As for anglophobia, one of the few sensible things I have heard Alex Salmond say (I think in the context of the world cup) was that scotland needed to define itself more in terms of what it positively was, and less in terms of not-being-England.

Of course, that may tell us more about his mental state that the scots at large, who probably spend as little time worrying about ways to annoy the English as I do thinking up ways to annoy the Scots. Or so I would hope. Certainly, if there was some positive case for independence, that would be one thing, but wanting independence in the hope it will upset the English would be rather sad. Not that it bothers me, if people want independence they should have it, for good reasons or bad.

I'm in favour of independence for London myself. You're all a funny lot out in the provinces.

[Husar]

If your 'carelevel' is so minimal, why leave us that to read?

Can't really talk for Louis but I guess it's because those in charge haven't realized yet how low his carelevel really is.
If he spreads the word, they may realize it someday.

[InsaneApache]

1. It's not just to annoy Tony Blair -- some people just don't like Labour now, but can't vote Tory (because they're Scottish). It is also slightly psychological in that a lot (probably a proportionate number) of media and government spokesmen are English, so Government = English.

You have got to be joking right?

Tony Blair -jock

Gordon Brown-jock

John Reid (BTW my great-grandmothers' name-from Rosyth)- jock

Alastair Campbell-ohh...c'mon

David Cameron-see above...

All we need now is a 'Jock' Ewing and we have the full set.

[Duke Malcolm]

Do you honestly believe that, Malcolm, or are you just taking to exaggeration
again? Surely you have to see it's stretching it a bit to put it down to Mel
Gibson's mince.

No. Well, perhaps a bit of hyperbole there. But the Nationalists would certainly not have been so successful if it was not for that movie. They used it to kick-start their campaign back in the day and it pretty much launched the current support.

You have got to be joking right?

Tony Blair -jock

Gordon Brown-jock

John Reid (BTW my great-grandmothers' name-from Rosyth)- jock

Alastair Campbell-ohh...c'mon

David Cameron-see above...

All we need now is a 'Jock' Ewing and we have the full set.

You're giving the Scots too much credit here.

Tony has an English accent, therefore is English.

Gordon has betrayed his Scottishness by trying to be the British PM (courtesy of the Press)

Alastair Campbell. Who?

David Cameron, well, Eton. Oxbridge. Tory. Notting Hill. English Toff.

[rory_20_uk]

To paraphrase the Duke of Wellington "merely as one is born in a stable does not make one a donkey". He did not let the fact he was born in Ireland get in the way of being an English Gentleman.

[Louis VI the Fat]

If your 'carelevel' is so minimal, why leave us that to read?

Because I desperately felt the urge to sink to the level of argument of the average provincial nationalist for once in my life, giving them a bit of their own.

[Duke of Gloucester]

You have got to be joking right?

Tony Blair -jock

Gordon Brown-jock

John Reid (BTW my great-grandmothers' name-from Rosyth)- jock

Alastair Campbell-ohh...c'mon

David Cameron-see above...

All we need now is a 'Jock' Ewing and we have the full set.

Exactly the same is true in the BBC - disproportionate number of Celts. Martyn Lewis, Huw Edwards, Fiona Bruce, James Naughtie, John Humphries.

As for the idea that Scotland is under "British" rule, well if MP's from the rest of Britain could vote on laws that applied only to Scotland then that would be true. Reality is the reverse. In fact England and Wales are ruled by Scotland. England comes off worse because it is ruled by Wales too. If the people of Scotland would like to be independent because they see themselves as distinct and different and then fine. If it is because they want to escape some perceived domination by the English then they are flying in the face of reality and dishonouring their own forebears who always managed to defend their nation from any attempt at military domination from their southern neighbours.

[naut]

The SNP seem to be assuming a lot economy wise. Do they really think they can keep it afloat without substantial hand-outs from England.

Also I couldn't see Wales leaving due to the economy question; and Northern Ireland, probably not either.

[Strike For The South]

Maybe England should leave?

[caravel]

Under British rule?

Well technically we're all under Scottish rule anyway, as Blair, Brown, Reid etc etc etc are all Scots. So if the SNP win we can send that lot swiftly northwards to join them.

[Lorenzo_H]

I don't really mind if Scotland split from the Union, as long as they don't do it like Ireland did.

It will show them how life is without being behind old England and it will make people leave the country in droves (it already has a high level of emigration).

[Duke Malcolm]

People have been leaving Scotland in droves since people first inhabited the place. I doubt that England being independent will mean people leave Scotland anymore then they previously have.

[scotchedpommes]

Well, the polls have closed, and my bit is done. What astonishing turnout will
there have been this time?

Extra points for those of you who voted for "Christ's Lordship".

[InsaneApache]

I'd love to be a fly on Bliars ceiling, this evening.

[scotchedpommes]

Dundee the first city to go entirely Nationalist. Nae luck, Malky.

[Vladimir]

Dundee the first city to go entirely Nationalist. Nae luck, Malky.

Wahoo!

[scotchedpommes]

My home constituency just went Nationalist to Salmond, which isn't really too
much of a surprise, and it looks like where I am now [Aberdeen Central] is going
to go from Labour to Nationalist. Looks to be going close, but the SNP hasn't
taken the target seats in Glasgow. Counting has been a disaster.

Stirling gone Nationalist.
Nationalists [Nicola Sturgeon] just took Govan.

[Agent Smith]

People have been leaving Scotland in droves since people first inhabited the place. I doubt that England being independent will mean people leave Scotland anymore then they previously have.

I thought Scotland became overpopulated when the blamanges from the planet Skyron in the galaxy Andromeda turned everyone in England into Scotsmen so they could win Wimbledon?

Kidding aside, this kind of news never ceases to amaze me. I try to keep up as best as I can on international news, but this is the first I've ever heard of this issue. I grow so tired of the news and media over here in the United States. Instead, you get top headlines on CNN like "Cop roughs up woman racing to dad in hospital," and "Hasselhoff: I have learned from drunk video." Maybe its because the US is so isolated from the rest of the world and only really borders two other countries, but I grow tired of our major news being dominated by Hollywood and meaningless drivel.

As for the Scots independence, I can somewhat understand. My grandmother is a direct decendent of a British family, who was given land in Virginia for military service in the colonies, and one of her relatives was a Civil War soldier named Robert Gaines Haile, Jr. He kept a diary and wrote home frequently during the war, and he actually has the only written account of certain events (he personally led Robert E. Lee's wife across the Chickahominy River from Federal lines, for instance). Anyway, the point is that he talked a lot about his reasons for fighting, and the over-arching theme is a right to self-governance, one which he thought would be taken away under Federal rule. Nationalism is really an offshoot of that personal freedom that individuals seek.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in Civil War stuff, all of his writings were compiled in a book that you can buy. It's called "Tell the Children I'll be Home When the Peaches Get Ripe." It's a really interesting look into the life of a soldier during the War.

[Myrddraal]

I don't understand where the idea of English oppression comes from. I visited Wales recently, around the end of the Six Nations. Something that really suprised me was the low level anti English feeling.

If France or Italy play Scotland or Wales at Rugby, English people pretty much unanimously support Scotland and Wales. If France or Italy play England though...

It's all about hating the English. It's certainly not a feeling which is returned, the English don't oppress the Scots. Like people have previously mentioned, the Scots if anything have more rights than the English (the ability to pass laws for Scotland alone, whilst still having the same vote as the next man in National elections).

Well I find it a bit sad. We share a lot of history, we have a lot of shared culture (as well as our own independent history and culture). If anything, it's to honour the heritage we share that the Union exists, if it was all about economy, England would have seceded long ago.

Just remember this, being British doesn't make you less Scottish, just as being English doesn't make you more British. It really doesn't.

PS, Braveheart is the most ahistorical, anglo-phobic film ever, I really like the fact that the Scots are wearing Kilts!
PPS, rdeče.jabolko I found this and thought you might be interested:
http://www.braveheart.info/news/2005...-31/51063.html

[Duke Malcolm]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Joe Fitz-fecking-patrick... Ugh...

And we lost 2 Tory councillors (though I suspect this has more to do with the Boundary and Voting changes as opposed to votes -- one area with 4 Tories previously cannot be expected to return 4 Tories under the STV)

Had the day off yesterday, since my school is a polling station. Today spent all the time in the library checking the poll results regularly, debating the results and the parties. Sore disappointment at the amount of SNP seats.

Quite surprised at how badly the small parties have done - only one other party (Scottish Greens) returned a member.


Of course, the counting has been a farce, with over 100,000 votes not being counted (due to incorrect filling in, no doubt due to the introduction of the STV). The nice woman spokesman came on the BBC this morning to say everthing was running very well, despite the fact the machines weren't reading ballots, and many poll counts (council elections mostly) had to be postponed...

[Agent Smith]

So, tell me, how does this work.

If Scotland passes a law, but there is a British law that supercedes it, does the British law prevail?

Maybe you should just adopt federalism in the UK and join us colonists

[Duke Malcolm]

47 to SNP, 46 to Labour, 17 to Tories, 16 to Liberals, 2 to Greens, 1 to Margo MacDonald.