Speak Dutch or be fired

[Odin]

Speak Dutch or be fired

A Belgian auto parts supplier has forbidden its workers to speak any language other than Dutch, even during their lunch break, and employees could be fired if they disobey.

"We have people from Italy, India, Poland, Algeria here. It's to avoid cliques forming here and there," said Geert Vermote, human resources manager of HP Pelzer in the town of Genk in Belgium's Dutch-speaking Flanders region.

Language is a sensitive topic in Belgium, particularly in Flanders where locals and politicians are keen to promote the use of Dutch and prevent the encroachment of the country's other main language, French.

Two staff at HP Pelzer have so far received written warnings, out of a workforce of 125 employees, some 70 percent of whom are of foreign origin. Three warnings would lead to a worker being fired.

Belgian newspaper De Standaard reported Thursday that workers of Turkish origin, who make up some 35 percent of the company's workforce, felt the rule was aimed against them and had asked the union to intervene.

Vermote said the rule had been agreed with the company's works council and said the "three strikes" rule applied to warnings of any form.

"It's really nothing other than other rules we have, such as a ban on smoking," he said.

********************************************************

I have been curious about the european immigration issues since 9/11, and the murder of van Gogh in the Netherlands, and the French legislation to ban burkas for muslim females (I think thats the legislation, please correct me if needed).

I am curious from my euro friends here on the boards whats the mood like over there with immigrants? In the states we are frankly struggling with the issue, but from time to time i see an article like this from Europe which indicates to me the problem might be as great there?

I understand this is a private company with this policy, still i am curious on whats it like on a day to day basis there? Here where i am sitting right now if I walk to a bank machine its offerred in 3 languages and there is a general growing resentment toward foriegn workers and immigrants.

Any of the Euro boys care to induldge my questions?

[Andres]

Speak Dutch or be fired
Language is a sensitive topic in Belgium, particularly in Flanders where locals and politicians are keen to promote the use of Dutch and prevent the encroachment of the country's other main language, French.

Well, well, well...



I'll respond later, maybe after the week-end, when I have ventilated some anger.

Thank you whoever wrote that partiuclar paragraphe. Thank you very much for stigmatising us and for pushing us all in the corner of the separatists, extremists, racists and the like.

Thank you very very much you [an endless chain of insulting words].

Triestig, ronduit triestig.

[Bijo]

Pff... well, I can understan' the reasoning behind it. Just as the guy says it's to prevent "cliques" and maybe to encourage togetherness regardless of language, ethinicity, etc. It's nothing wrong, or is it?

I won't address that question about how it's exactly in here: I'm not a Euro boy, but a Euro man :P

[Odin]

I won't address that question about how it's exactly in here: I'm not a Euro boy, but a Euro man :P

No offense intended by the "euro boy" comment. My point in posting the article wasnt to piss people off but to gain some perspective on immigration. I deal with immigrants at my job fairly regularly and have had some positive and negative outcomes.

Just wanted to get a perspective from someone else in another part of the world. So any Euro guys, euro females or anyone who lives in Europe care to comment on how thier part of the world is absorbing the immigration issue?

thanks,

Odin

[Andres]

My point in posting the article wasnt to piss people off but to gain some perspective on immigration. I deal with immigrants at my job fairly regularly and have had some positive and negative outcomes.

You didn't piss me off my friend. But the quoted paragraph did, because of the ignorance and the lack of perspective that speaks off it. The author should be [self-censoring].

Don't worry Odin, I still love you

[Bijo]

Eh-- I didn't take offense, Odin. Of course I knew what you meant, I was just being smartass and bored at the time :) (and even logical :P)


Here in Holland for example on schools it's most likely everybody has to speak Dutch, but there are always people who don't. It depends though sometimes: for instance my college is kind of international, so there you get to hear all kinds of languages.

In workplaces, just speak Dutch. Though it depends... what if it's some kind of place where lots of Turkish people work. Of course they'd speak Turkish, though I'd never really been to a Turkish place like that.

I have the sense here in Holland there's still this-- negative feeling that people have towards immigrants / foreigners / etc. Let's just say it's easier to be criticized when you're not white Dutch in here. They think something like "Oh, it's one of those foreigners again. Doesn't know the language, this, that, whatever."

There was this situation one time when I was doing internship at a music school. When just being new and sitting in the teachers room having a smoke, I heard this one woman suddenly talking about Indonesian people going unnnoticed because they are so integrated, while I was in the room, while many of them were looking kind of scared or something. Well, guess what: I'm basically from there, though born and raised in Holland. The way she said it you could hear some kind of fear or insecurity in her voice and a sense of being serious and avoidant. Do I need to go on? I think you get the point.

That's just one example though. But I find it amusing in a way that many people here in the country who are white and Dutch can be so stupid and primitive in their minds, irrational and plain silly. Instead of treating me like a Dutch person, I was treated or approached differently due to my origins. And it doesn't matter if you're intelligent, have good qualities, or maybe are basically BETTER than them or any such traits, etc.: you are not white and you are not pure Dutch, therefore you receive different treatment.

It's as simple as that. Hell, I even got a Dutch name, have always known perfect Dutch (while many white Dutch people don't), know about 3,5 languages or more, and when I appear before anybody, let's say an application talk, some are actually surprised to see somebody they didn't imagine in their heads. It's like you were the essence of integration, but they don't want you to be integrated. They just don't want you.

[Odin]

Eh-- I didn't take offense, Odin. Of course I knew what you meant, I was just being smartass and bored at the time :) (and even logical :P)


Here in Holland for example on schools it's most likely everybody has to speak Dutch, but there are always people who don't. It depends though sometimes: for instance my college is kind of international, so there you get to hear all kinds of languages.

In workplaces, just speak Dutch. Though it depends... what if it's some kind of place where lots of Turkish people work. Of course they'd speak Turkish, though I'd never really been to a Turkish place like that.

I have the sense here in Holland there's still this-- negative feeling that people have towards immigrants / foreigners / etc. Let's just say it's easier to be criticized when you're not white Dutch in here. They think something like "Oh, it's one of those foreigners again. Doesn't know the language, this, that, whatever."

There was this situation one time when I was doing internship at a music school. When just being new and sitting in the teachers room having a smoke, I heard this one woman suddenly talking about Indonesian people going unnnoticed because they are so integrated, while I was in the room, while many of them were looking kind of scared or something. Well, guess what: I'm basically from there, though born and raised in Holland. The way she said it you could hear some kind of fear or insecurity in her voice and a sense of being serious and avoidant. Do I need to go on? I think you get the point.

That's just one example though. But I find it amusing in a way that many people here in the country who are white and Dutch can be so stupid and primitive in their minds, irrational and plain silly. Instead of treating me like a Dutch person, I was treated or approached differently due to my origins. And it doesn't matter if you're intelligent, have good qualities, or maybe are basically BETTER than them or any such traits, etc.: you are not white and you are not pure Dutch, therefore you receive different treatment.

It's as simple as that. Hell, I even got a Dutch name, have always known perfect Dutch (while many white Dutch people don't), know about 3,5 languages or more, and when I appear before anybody, let's say an application talk, some are actually surprised to see somebody they didn't imagine in their heads. It's like you were the essence of integration, but they don't want you to be integrated. They just don't want you.

In my small corner of the world we have a slightly different dynamic. i live in one of (if not thee) most expensive places in the United States. We have a labor shortage for laborers. As unglamorous as this (and i) will sound we dont have americans (in my area) willing to clean bathrooms, serve coffee and man gas stations.

The immigrants we have in this area are primarily 1st and 2nd generation, there is a massive language gap to the point where several services (banks, gas stations) are offerred in english, spanish and portugeese. It is to the point where the resentment boils over to open chastisement. I have personally witnessed white anglo americans getting angry at someone at a coffee shop because she didnt understand the order.

Justified? Perhaps but I do deal with this on a regular basis. Part of my job is overseeing federal and state funding of an assistance program for families in need. I basically dole out money to people who are in need of it, and 75% of my battles are fought with immigrants who have some issue with paperwork on thier end.

Its flavored my perception of the issue in all candeor and I try very hard to be moderate and accept both points of view in the equation. So when I see articles like this one, which seem to me to be extreme to the right (to use a political reference) I can sympathize with the sentiment, but find myself curious as to the perceptions of the persons actually living the policies and practices.

thanks for the thoughtful reply bijo.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Language is a sensitive topic in Belgium, particularly in Flanders where locals and politicians are keen to promote the use of Dutch and prevent the encroachment of the country's other main language, French.

Andres, to be honest, I've never read anything about Belgium that's more true than the quote above. What is it that upset you so much about it?

Belgium is a linguistic powder keg. In the last decades, the country has been federalised into three regions and three linguistic 'communautés' (communities?) - Francophone, Dutchophone and Germanophone. This has been the result mainly of the Flemish movement.

However, apart from a certain sensitivity to linguistic issues in Belgium, I think this particular case is quite comparible to general immigration issues everywhere. It's not very different from American worry or irritation at the encroachment of Spanish.

I am curious from my euro friends here on the boards whats the mood like over there with immigrants? In the states we are frankly struggling with the issue, but from time to time i see an article like this from Europe which indicates to me the problem might be as great there?
My impression is that Europe is struggling more than America with immigration issues. The social and economic postion of immigrants is worse, and the indigenous populations are more racist than Americans. For one thing, etnicity, language and nationality are often inextricably linked within European states, unlike, largely, the US.


[off-topic] the French legislation to ban burkas for muslim females (I think thats the legislation, please correct me if needed).
I'm never out to 'correct' anyone, but I'll gladly inform people when asked. There is a French law against conspicuous religious symbols in schools. Not a burka or headscarf ban, although the law is often called a 'headscarf ban' abroad. While incorrect, it would be hypocritical to deny that headscarfs were ultimately the reason behind this law indeed. However, if you show up with a large cross around your neck at my university I will personally rip it off.
(Unless you're like 6'4 and full of muscles or anything. In that case, anything goes. )

Here the law is presented and explained within the context of French traditions of secularity and equality.

[Stig]

Actually Louis most Flemish people speak French as well, but the Wallonians don't speak Flemish.
As we hear it here in Holland (as the Belgians are our best friends since they no longer are better at football then us) the Flemish are actually far more open to one Belgium then the Wallonians ... not mentioning Felip Dewinter ofcourse.

I have nothing against immigrants, but if you want to work in a country speak the language. Princess Maxima learned it in a couple of months, so start learning. Dutch ain't that difficult.

[Odin]

My impression is that Europe is struggling more than America with immigration issues. The social and economic postion of immigrants is worse, and the indigenous populations are more racist than Americans. For one thing, etnicity, language and nationality are often inextricably linked within European states, unlike, largely, the US.

the nationalism argument makes sense with regard to European reaction to immigration. In the states the news i see in regards to european immigration issues is contingent on the the prior holdings of the countries. I dontk know if i am articulating this well so I will make a better attempt.

Due to the vast territories that a lot of European nations had isnt it true that alot of non continental subjects are alowed citizenship? France in particular, arent a lot of the immigrants really french subjects (or decendents of) who happen to be born in another country?

thats pretty much how it is presented here, and i guess we dont have a full grasp on the lack of intergration of past colonial policies to modern economic circumstances (americans dont). Am I understanding your point or am I expanding to far?

I'm never out to 'correct' anyone, but I'll gladly inform people when asked. There is a French law against conspicuous religious symbols in schools. Not a burka or headscarf ban, although the law is often called a 'headscarf ban' abroad. While incorrect, it would be hypocritical to deny that headscarfs were ultimately the reason behind this law indeed. However, if you show up with a large cross around your neck at my university I will personally rip it off.
(Unless you're like 6'4 and full of muscles or anything. In that case, anything goes. )

If i am wrong i dont mind being corrected, to me its all in how its done, one can do it pleasantly or one can be a jerk about it, thank you for being pleasant.

You are correct, in the U.S. we have heard about the "head scarf" ban in france and it seems to always be discussed in conjunction with the unrest last year. (I understand the two arent necessarily linked). Your link was informative but it seems to be a quandry to ask that those born in other countries adhere to the french glue.

[Banquo's Ghost]

My impression is that Europe is struggling more than America with immigration issues. The social and economic postion of immigrants is worse, and the indigenous populations are more racist than Americans. For one thing, etnicity, language and nationality are often inextricably linked within European states, unlike, largely, the US.

Immigration is a significant issue throughout Europe - both extra-EU immigration and intra-EU immigration, alongside sub-categories such as our traditionally welcoming refugee policies.

In Ireland, it has become quite a problem - less so (to my knowledge) in Dublin which is quite a melting pot but out in the West I see a lot of ugly racism. Which is rather ironic, since we Irish have quite a history of relying on the good nature of other countries to help us find our feet.

The language challenges are more complex again, and I should let a gaelic speaker address those. Tribesman (who is also a great example of how Irish employers can celebrate diversity and break down barriers) could speak much more authoritatively on both subjects than I.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Actually Louis most Flemish people speak French as well, but the Wallonians don't speak Flemish.

the Flemish are actually far more open to one Belgium then the Wallonians

I would agree with the first, and disagree with the second statement.

For the record, I think that if you're Walloon you should learn the language of 60% percent of your compatriots. Or rather, I don't mind about a steel worker in Liège. But a white collar worker, a person of higher education, somebody with an interest in his own country, yes. Or if you live in Brussels.
You don't have to speak it perfectly, but at least enough so you can discuss oncoming trains with your Flemish counterpart. (The Belgians will know what I'm referring to here)

As to the second statement. No, the federalisation has been the demand of mainly the Flemish movement. The Walloons are generally more supportive of Belgium.
Once, French was both the regional language of Walloonia and the national lingua franca. French has been on the wane, both demographically and as the official language of all of Belgium. This, you can guess, is not the result of Walloon demand.

Your link was informative but it seems to be a quandry to ask that those born in other countries adhere to the french glue.

It's not wrong to ask people to adhere to the French glue. French citizenship is a progressive tool, it means equality for all, regardless of your religion, background, class.

The hypocrisy, the great shame of the Republic, is that its retoric speaks of equality and fraternity, when in effect these are often only extended to people of French blood.
This is what Bijo described too with his experience in the Netherlands: 'It's like you were the essence of integration, but they don't want you to be integrated. They just don't want you.'

It's the tragedy of all of Europe.

[Tribesman]

Screw HP Pelzer , take them to the courts and screw the backside off them , they live in a country that has more than one language , they operatate in an economic union that has a hell of a lot of officially recognised languages all of which can be used without any threat of disciplinary action by some small minded from Genk .

The language challenges are more complex again, and I should let a gaelic speaker address those. Tribesman (who is also a great example of how Irish employers can celebrate diversity and break down barriers) could speak much more authoritatively on both subjects than I.

Banquo , how do you manage such timing ? A driver today was complaining about the Portugese being spoken in the canteen at lunchtime .
I complained to him about the English being spoken but he didn't understand Irish , so I had to tell him in his "foriegn" language but of course that wasn't fair in his eyes because these foriegners don't speak Irish either ,so I informed him about a little Romanian fella with very very bad English , but perfect fluent Irish(conny flavour) .
It of course led to a tirade about immigrants working for peanuts not paying tax and robbing jobs from good irish fellas , which is strange as it is a unionised site where all workers (and employers) have to get/pay and prove that they get/pay at least the minimum negotiated rate for their job , plus all benefits and entitlements to even be allowed on site .
He then tried some bollox then about illegals and all that , which really was the last straw considering he was 12 years in the States as an illegal .

While this exchange was going on some very nice insults in Portugese were being sent up at him by the Brazilians , most people were laughing their off (since of course insults are often the first thing you learn in a foriegn tongue) , but the dumb of a driver didn't get it and just got angrier and very red in the face .
Small minded , em for what they are .
But hey , on the bright side it didn't come to blows (which is lucky as he is supposed to be a complete nutter and my left is still fairly shattered from the Christmas works party)

[ajaxfetish]

I love hearing Tribesman's work stories. He seems to have quite a flair for dealing with intolerant underlings.


Ajax

[HoreTore]

I worked half a year in a hotel in Ireland a couple of years back. Most of the employees were british, as well as some various other nationalities, including a girl from sweden. I didn't have any problem speaking english all the time, that was the top reason I worked there(and to drink, of course). But there were times I was VERY glad to be able to speak norwegian to someone again. It was a way of clearing my head from all the english and feel a little closer to home, I guess.

I wouldn't like any law preventing this.

[doc_bean]

Andres, to be honest, I've never read anything about Belgium that's more true than the quote above. What is it that upset you so much about it?

Belgium is a linguistic powder keg. In the last decades, the country has been federalised into three regions and three linguistic 'communautés' (communities?) - Francophone, Dutchophone and Germanophone. This has been the result mainly of the Flemish movement.

The Belgian situation is quite complex, in general I'd say our biggest problem is our 'church mentality, which isn't anything religious, it just refers to the fact that most people are born, live and die 'under' the same church tower, meaning they live in the same town all their lives. This leads to absurd situations in a country small enough to cross in a single day by bike (if you're in shape).

This means that people in west Flanders often have no idea what happens in Brussels, they hear all these stories about the 'evil Walloons' taking all our money and speaking French in Flanders. I've lived in Brabant (near Brussels and the language border) for quit a while now and I have to say that all the problems between Waloons and the Flemish are heavily overrated. They're mostly political issues, not things where the average man has a say in. Politicians love to play us against eachother. The fact that the Walloons are just as easily fooled by the idea of the separatist Flemish shows that the problem exist on both sides of the border, and that after all, we are the same people.

Splitting up our country was one of the worst mistakes ever. I've said it before, federalism only works in large countries. You can also see the problems in the UK now as a result of Blair's policy. But hey, federalism means more money grabbing politicians, so it's not hard to see why they support it.

[doc_bean]

Actually Louis most Flemish people speak French as well, but the Wallonians don't speak Flemish.
As we hear it here in Holland (as the Belgians are our best friends since they no longer are better at football then us) the Flemish are actually far more open to one Belgium then the Wallonians ... not mentioning Felip Dewinter ofcourse.

I have nothing against immigrants, but if you want to work in a country speak the language. Princess Maxima learned it in a couple of months, so start learning. Dutch ain't that difficult.

The famous Flemish grasp on foreign languages is far overrated, I do know some Walloons who speak near perfect Dutch. Let's not forget that for a lot of people learning Dutch is just a waste of time, since they won't come in contact with the Flemish much. And the best way to learn a language is using it, I've had 7+ years of French and can hardly express my self in la langue de Molière.

One of the biggest issues is actually our royality I beleive. If those retards would just take the time to learn decent Dutch a lot of our 'insecurities' would have been avoided imho. But they are a constant symbol of the history of the Flemish as 'second class citizens'.

[KrooK]

I'm Pole. If I heard something like that I would do 3 things;
1) Change a job
2) Sue my boss
3) Tell newspapers

[Stig]

It has nothing to do with being a Pole are not
You come here for a job, so adjust or go back to Poland as some would say.
1. You can't change your job, this is all you can get, it's either this or back to Poland and you don't want that.
2. Well you can't, he's in his right to demand you to speak Dutch as Polish isn't the official language
3. Yeah, so, they make a story about it. But more then 50% of the population thinks you have to go back to your own country anyway

[Strike For The South]

How can you tell the difference between a Wallon and a Flem? and if the Flems speak French why dont they just join France? I've come to realize Europe is quite petty over such issues.

[doc_bean]

How can you tell the difference between a Wallon and a Flem? and if the Flems speak French why dont they just join France? I've come to realize Europe is quite petty over such issues.

Flems speak Dutch, Waloons speak French. I don't think the French will have them since the region is one of the poorest in Europe (well technically, we give them enough money so they can all get their unemployment benefits).

I agree with the last part of your post.

[Strike For The South]

Flems speak Dutch, Waloons speak French. I don't think the French will have them since the region is one of the poorest in Europe (well technically, we give them enough money so they can all get their unemployment benefits).

I agree with the last part of your post.

Sounds like you think you'd be better off without them?

[doc_bean]

Sounds like you think you'd be better off without them?

Nah, just the Flemish in me taking over

We need them for several reasons: the space, the potential workers, the connection to France (linguistic anyway) and because we'd never, ever agree about what should happen to Brussels if we'd split up.

[Stig]

and because we'd never, ever agree about what should happen to Brussels if we'd split up.

I'd build a wall

[doc_bean]

I'd build a wall

[Papewaio]

Is this legal in the EU?

Wouldn't it be reasonable to have workers speak the national language... with the EU in the picture couldn't it be reasonable for the workers to speak the national language or one of the top 3 languages spoken in the EU?

So as long as the spoke the national tongue, French or Spanish or German (no idea the 3 most widely spoken languages are in the EU).

[Redleg]

Its a crying out shame that many people still think that where you come from, what color your skin is, or what language you speak means that your a lesser person.

If the person can function in the task that they are being paid for and are working within the laws, does it really matter what language they speak?

[Stig]

Is this legal in the EU?

Wouldn't it be reasonable to have workers speak the national language... with the EU in the picture couldn't it be reasonable for the workers to speak the national language or one of the top 3 languages spoken in the EU?

So as long as the spoke the national tongue, French or Spanish or German (no idea the 3 most widely spoken languages are in the EU).

Nope, the EU hasn't got one law. We (the French and the Dutch) voted against it, so it was called off.

[Husar]

If the person can function in the task that they are being paid for and are working within the laws, does it really matter what language they speak?

It does when they hide things they shouldn't hide in a language noone else understands.
You know, when I'm with a turkish friend and he suddenly starts talking turkish to other turks around, I feel a bit excluded at times, like I'M the inferior being...doesn't drive me mad or anything, but it would be nice if we could stick to the local language as long as other people are around.

[Redleg]

It does when they hide things they shouldn't hide in a language noone else understands.

One first has to prove that the individuals in question are attempting to do something wrong by hiding behind a language you can not speak.

You know, when I'm with a turkish friend and he suddenly starts talking turkish to other turks around, I feel a bit excluded at times, like I'M the inferior being...doesn't drive me mad or anything, but it would be nice if we could stick to the local language as long as other people are around.

Why? Is not a group that speak a language unable to speak that language soley because the public around them can not speak it?

I find such a statement to be in a direct conflict with a basic principle of freedom that I hold dear. Freedom is not about convience or having everybody speak the same language.