Pikeman vs Sword & Shield head to head post 1.02?

[RickooClan]

I have not really tried to use pikeman in campaign and today i just test them out with custom battle on some S&S units.

I was so surprise even head to head, with a stationary defensive solid setup, the pikeman are chopped into pieces by those S&S unit.

I even tried 2 units of pikemen vs 1 unit of dismounted feudal knight (so they cant "wrap" up my flank), the DFK still outrun them all even at the front of pikeline?? (150 pikemen gone, only 20 DFK is killed....)

I am not sure if this is right any infantry can beat an organised solid pikeline head to head so easily??

[Moral55]

Not surprising, The pikemen have a penalty to attack VS infantry, they have less attack to begin with, and usually less armour.
A general rule is only use pikemen as infantry if they are upper tier and have maxed out armour upgrades.

[RickooClan]

Not surprising, The pikemen have a penalty to attack VS infantry, they have less attack to begin with, and usually less armour.
A general rule is only use pikemen as infantry if they are upper tier and have maxed out armour upgrades.

Oh, i never know such penalty applied for pikeman, if thats the case in m2tw only? [RTW pikeman works different]

And such penalty make little sense to me in real life situation, other then game play balancing concern.

The most weird thing in m2tw is, in the initial contact, even the swordman didnt touch the pikeman in the animation, their charge still kill all the front rank of the pikeman....

[pike master]

pikemen are bugged intentionally but there are ways to get around CAs little tricks.

[RickooClan]

pikemen are bugged intentionally but there are ways to get around CAs little tricks.

"bugged" intentionally? It can either be bugged or intended i think?

Sorry if i have missed this bug which might have been discuss before 1.02. (all the major bugs i know is shield and 2h bug)

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

They changed it to stop scottish pike spam in MP

[hrvojej]

They changed it to stop scottish pike spam in MP

They went on the record with this? Cause if they did, and this is in fact the case, I am thoroughly

Now, if all this is true, please tell me there is a better way to go around this than removing the pikemen's secondary weapons altogether.

[anders]

the professional late-medieval swiss pikemen were regarded as pretty much unbeatable as long as they held rank, and should be so in the game too.

sword and buckler men would bypass the pike points by rolling under the pikes and entering meelee, but they cant possibly have have suceeded with that tactic on a regular basis, just imagine how hard that move would be to pull of.

therefore, the good pike units should in most cases beat swordsmen front to front. lesser pike militia, with lower cohesion, might be an other matter because they loose formation quicker and allow swordmen to infiltrate the ranks.

game balance is all well and good, but historically, for a while pike reigned the battlefield almost supreme, and should do so in the game too, losing their dominant position first when field arty and gunners are introduced.

[Empirate]

I'd like to see the more professional soldiers performing better because of discipline issues, not stats alone. This is especially important for pike units that rely on unit cohesion a lot. If you bring only pike militia, seeing them switch to swords in melee or being broken up by swordsmen feels realistic. But if you bring higher-tech pikes (Tercio, Aventuros, Scotch what-was-their-names), these should really be impregnable from the front, just because they hold formation better and don't let go of their pikes in a hurry. This system of "performs better because of discipline" could also be tied to unit experience, to make the system more interesting. This is really something I'd like to see! Until then, Carl's ProblemFixer removes a pike unit's swords, which is sufficient to make it worthwhile.

[RickooClan]

@ Carl

I think i am going to fix the pike issue on my 1.02 game, could you let me know what have you done to fix the pike problem in your fixer mod? If the only thing i have to do is removing the secondary weapon [sword] ? thanks a lot!

I guess without a fixer, even with the full release of 1.2, pike unit which cant even hold their own at front is totally useless imo.

[Miracle]

Making pikemen nearly invincible against frontal melee attackers makes both S&S infantry and heavy cavalry far less useful. Granted, pikemen are currently of limited use themselves, but they are the only unit type capable of withstanding a cavalry charge and killing cavalry quickly with minimal losses as well as directly protecting another unit from that charge.

However, I'd agree that they whip out their swords too soon against attacking infantry, and inflict too few casualties . Making them use their pikes longer and inflicting greater casualties on infantry is perfectly fine, but they should still lose a 1 vs. 1 match against a comparable S&S unit.

[pike master]

the only reason sword and buckler men succeeded against pikes is because they were integrated in the tercio pikemens ranks. when the pike walls engaged the sword and buckler men would crawl underneath the melee and start hamstringing the opponents pikemen.

this would be very difficult to implement in the game. also a disciplined pike formation would tend to remain holding their pikes despite if an isolated individual makes it throught the pike wall because they know that if they continue to inflict damage to the rest of his unit he will look back and realize he is isolated while his unit is fleeing.

furthermore under the weighted advance of a swiss pike block he would also stand a good chance of loosing his balance and being trampled underfoot.

offensive pike tactics also usually integrated a core of halberdiers inside the pike block to continue the attack in case the spear wall broke down.

a very formidable combination, but also very difficult to emulate in the game because of different marching speeds.

[Agent Smith]

Making pikemen nearly invincible against frontal melee attackers makes both S&S infantry and heavy cavalry far less useful. Granted, pikemen are currently of limited use themselves, but they are the only unit type capable of withstanding a cavalry charge and killing cavalry quickly with minimal losses as well as directly protecting another unit from that charge.

That's just not true. In RTW, phalanxes were tough from the front against anything, however, they were far from invulnerable.

[Bob the Insane]

That's just not true. In RTW, phalanxes were tough from the front against anything, however, they were far from invulnerable.

Quite true, and a head-on battle between a decent phalanx and a good S&S (or spear) unit often ended up with very few initial casuaulties as the S&S could defend themseves against the pikes but could not get close enough attack the men. Only if the S&S men could get around the flanks or somehow break the formation and get in could they do a lot of damage. Until then there was just a lot of pushing....

[_Tristan_]

I was so surprise even head to head, with a stationary defensive solid setup, the pikeman are chopped into pieces by those S&S unit.

You shouldn't have been surprise...

Historically, and from what I remember from my tabletop wargaming days, S&S units were the perfect antithesis of pikes... Think of how more free of movement a sworsman is compared to a man wielding a 10-foot long pike which could be easily diverted to get to the man behind...