Making Vikings Scary

[CountMRVHS]

Hi all,

Been having fun on the VI map, and I've been again thinking about why it is that the Vikings always fizzle out as a threat quite early in any campaign. From my position as the Northumbrians, I was able to watch some interesting Viking behavior recently and I thought I'd submit it to see if anyone has any thoughts.

The first Viking attack (that I could see) was on the Mercian province of Lindissi. This is unusual, as it is normally the Picts who suffer first. It could have been that the Vikings were raiding the rebels in the SE of Britain, but of course that wouldn't show up on the diplomacy and I had no agents down there to see.

Well, Lindissi eventually ended up in my hands but the Vikings decided to give up and started striking at the Picts and other rebel regions. They took the next region down from Lindissi (East Engle), but left it lightly garrisoned so I was able to take it in a few turns.

I was pleased, however, to see that the Vikings had a formidable stack roaming around, led by their king. I saw it jump over to Wales -- very unusual in my experience -- and get into a war with the Welsh, then hop up to Manau and the northern Islands of Domon and Orcades, as well as Cait. For several years the Vikings shuffled back and forth between the provinces of Guined and Defet on the NW and SW of Wales, respectively - experiencing frequent rebellions in these provinces, which the Vikings would defeat, only to leave another tiny garrison which would lead to another rebellion.

The height of ridiculousness was when the Vikings repeatedly attacked Reget -- which was led by a 6-star Rebel general and hordes of Armoured Spearmen. Needless to say, it took them several years and repeated attacks before they even managed to drive the rebels back to the fort, but when that happened -- you guessed it -- another rebellion drove the Vikings out.

So I was sadly watching the Vikings squander some excellent troops and waste endless time grinding down their forces over rebel provinces which had already been torched (by the Vikings themselves) many times over, or, in the case of Reget, throwing themselves at probably the most deadly army on the map at that time while the riches of Ireland and England lay within their grasp. I make it a policy to never ally or ceasefire with the Vikings, precisely because I want to *fight* them -- but that very rarely happens.

I wonder, then, what can be done about this. The Vikings seem predisposed to attack Rebels, leave, and attack them again when they lose control of the province. Is this due to their AI behavior as "BARBARIAN_RAIDER"? Would "CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST" lead to more successful conquest for the Vikings?

Earlier I had modded my VI game so the Vikings started out with a lot more money and about a dozen ships -- but now I'm wondering if that extra money and navy simply encourages them to sit still. Would it be more productive, instead, to give them the normal amount of money and boats but a slightly larger army, forcing them to attack and giving them the ability to attack with a bigger force earlier in the game?

I'm curious about what any of you have done -- or thought of doing -- to make the Vikings more of a challenge in VI. It would be great to see the Vikings actually carve out a kingdom for themselves that consisted of more than just Domon, but that never seems to happen. Any thoughts?

[caravel]

The first Viking attack (that I could see) was on the Mercian province of Lindissi. This is unusual, as it is normally the Picts who suffer first. It could have been that the Vikings were raiding the rebels in the SE of Britain, but of course that wouldn't show up on the diplomacy and I had no agents down there to see.

It depends on where the Viking ships end up. Nine times out of ten they will deploy north, but occasionally a ship ends up on the east coast opening up an invasion path.

I was pleased, however, to see that the Vikings had a formidable stack roaming around, led by their king. I saw it jump over to Wales -- very unusual in my experience -- and get into a war with the Welsh, then hop up to Manau and the northern Islands of Domon and Orcades, as well as Cait. For several years the Vikings shuffled back and forth between the provinces of Guined and Defet on the NW and SW of Wales, respectively - experiencing frequent rebellions in these provinces, which the Vikings would defeat, only to leave another tiny garrison which would lead to another rebellion.

I've seen the attack the west coast of Britain a lot, it's due to some of those provinces being rebel, which are a magnet to the AI.

The height of ridiculousness was when the Vikings repeatedly attacked Reget -- which was led by a 6-star Rebel general and hordes of Armoured Spearmen. Needless to say, it took them several years and repeated attacks before they even managed to drive the rebels back to the fort, but when that happened -- you guessed it -- another rebellion drove the Vikings out.

Reget is a very rebellious province. A rebellious factor of 4 I believe. (Like Portugal or Lithuania on the main map.) The Vikings or another AI faction will always for it and usually, even if they do win the province, fail to hold it down.

I wonder, then, what can be done about this. The Vikings seem predisposed to attack Rebels, leave, and attack them again when they lose control of the province. Is this due to their AI behavior as "BARBARIAN_RAIDER"? Would "CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST" lead to more successful conquest for the Vikings?

The answer would be to make the Vikings a Catholic Faction, and indeed change their starting AI to "CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST". While in "Golden Horde mode" they will always be a suicidal and wasteful faction.

Another idea would be to reduce the support costs of Viking Huscarles, as the many heirs that come of age soon paralyse the Viking economy. It would also be a good idea to remove the deep sea region separating Scandinavia from Britain allowing bidirectional trade.

Earlier I had modded my VI game so the Vikings started out with a lot more money and about a dozen ships -- but now I'm wondering if that extra money and navy simply encourages them to sit still. Would it be more productive, instead, to give them the normal amount of money and boats but a slightly larger army, forcing them to attack and giving them the ability to attack with a bigger force earlier in the game?

The bigger army will simply increase support costs. The issue is the raiding behaviour. The Vikings will attack, raze and leave, which will give them very little income in the long term, removing the raiding is the key, and I believe that so long as the Vikings are Pagan the raiding behaviour will persist. Starting them out as catholics with the "CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST" AI type, cheaper support costs for Huscarles and smaller starting armies should fix that.

[CountMRVHS]

Interesting suggestions. I hadn't thought of making them Catholic, but of course that would help them hold down Catholic provinces, which are all of the British & Irish provinces. I'm not sure if I can live with the anachronism of Catholic Vikings, however .

I also had never considered changing the deep-sea region. Is that a simple startpos file fix? On the other hand, I suppose I could simply make all boats deep-sea capable. Then again, trade is never a huge part of VI income, and I wouldn't want to give British factions the ability to attack Scandinavia.

I can't believe it never occurred to me to lower support-costs for their units! I've been modding for years and never thought of that.

You're definitely right that their problem is their raiding behavior. I'm not sure how much raiding behavior is tied to pagan religion -- I've made several pagan factions for various VI-campaign mods and haven't noticed them act like the Vikings. But I'll see what can be done. Thanks for the input!

[macsen rufus]

I've made several pagan factions for various VI-campaign mods and haven't noticed them act like the Vikings

Just being pagans isn't enough, they also need to be declared as FN_07 to get the Viking "slot"

IMHO though, removing the raiding capability does kind of render the entire scenario defunct, although I do agree on the basic problem, that they get too easily crippled by poor economy. Another idea might be to reduce the number of heirs in the startpos file. I'm not sure how many they actually start with, but at least you can guarantee they go at least 16 years without getting any more expensive huscarle units.

I've had various VI campaigns where I've NEVER fought the Vikings (which also makes the scenario kind of defunct, as well )

[naut]

I'm not sure how many they actually start with, but at least you can guarantee they go at least 16 years without getting any more expensive huscarle units.

They start with 2, aged 3 and 11. A good idea there though.

I've had various VI campaigns where I've NEVER fought the Vikings

Likewise, I've found that they only work well if you are the vikings.

[caravel]

Just being pagans isn't enough, they also need to be declared as FN_07 to get the Viking "slot"

That may be how the Byzantine faction works. Removing the old Byzantine faction, "FN_BYZANTINE", and adding a new Byzantine faction called for example "FN_BYZANTINE2" should remove the +2 influence and +1 command bonus that Byzantine faction leaders always get.

[ULC]

What a monetary bonus? say, start them with 20,000 in easy, 16,000 in normal, 12,000 in hard, and 8,000 in expert. Lower the support costs for the Huscarles, remove the deep sea areas, and change the ship stats so that even if the computer gets funky ideas about invading Jutland the vikings can "easily" put it down.