Greek Barracks, balancing Hoplite progression?

[Shieldmaiden]

I noticed when trying the Greeks that 3rd and 4th level Barracks are a bit strange.

City Barracks - Militia Hoplites, Hoplites, Armoured Hoplites.

Army Barracks - Militia Hoplites, Hoplites (+1 Experience), Armoured Hoplites, Spartan Hoplites (Sparta only).

As soon as you build a City Barracks, your Hoplites become obsolete due to Armoured Hoplites, which are quite powerful for a 3rd level unit.

Unless you build it in Sparta, Army Barracks are useless, +1 experience to Hoplites is not enough to make you recruit them over Armoured Hoplites.

I have no idea why I'm posting it here, but does it look like a mistake to anybody else?

How would switching it round (3rd level +1 Exp to Hoplite, remove Armoured until 4th level) effect the Greeks balance in comparison to other factions?

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

The greeks are getting eliminated early in most of the games as it is. Armored hoplites later = no Chance against the Maks and Brutii

[Shieldmaiden]

Perhaps the +1 experience would be more useful if given to Armoured Hoplites then? Might make 4th level Barracks genuinely useful...

I thought the Greeks were just a victim of faction geography rather than a weak military...

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Normal hoplites have only 4 morale which is low. The extra experience is usefull as they get morale boost AND +1 defence skill/attack. Armored hoplites are monsters and have good (8) morale the +1 to stats would be hardly noticeable They also cost a lot more in both recruitment and upkeep

[Shieldmaiden]

I'm testing it now (Short Campaign, M/VH) using:

City Barracks (L3) - +1 exp to Hoplites, no Armoured Hoplites until you build Army Barracks (L4).

I've looked up the Numidian and Roman techtree and its more consistent, it might prove easier with cheaper more experienced hoplites earlier, especially if I get poor.

Btw, I'd like to thank the modding people on the Org for all the guides and stuff. I've "fixed" a few minor things in my RTW 1.5 (Academy law bonus, Epona temples, Praetorian recruitment) and its good to begin tinkering :)

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Don't forget to remove the extra HP from the Spartans while you're at it btw. And don't go anywhere without the Bugfixer (player1)

[Shieldmaiden]

Don't forget to remove the extra HP from the Spartans

Care to explain that..?

[guineawolf]

I noticed when trying the Greeks that 3rd and 4th level Barracks are a bit strange.

City Barracks - Militia Hoplites, Hoplites, Armoured Hoplites.

Army Barracks - Militia Hoplites, Hoplites (+1 Experience), Armoured Hoplites, Spartan Hoplites (Sparta only).

As soon as you build a City Barracks, your Hoplites become obsolete due to Armoured Hoplites, which are quite powerful for a 3rd level unit.

Unless you build it in Sparta, Army Barracks are useless, +1 experience to Hoplites is not enough to make you recruit them over Armoured Hoplites.

I have no idea why I'm posting it here, but does it look like a mistake to anybody else?

How would switching it round (3rd level +1 Exp to Hoplite, remove Armoured until 4th level) effect the Greeks balance in comparison to other factions?

It is becoz the Greek cities are infantry base faction too...
they have no strong cavalry to cover them (it makes me find annoying when i have to chasing those damned archers all around the battlefield ,and armor hoplite have same defense with legion,but it got 11 armor only compare to legion=12 armor.Even it got 7 charge bonus ,it still cannot cover the weakness they got,they are spearmen,legion is swordmen.Without using phalanxe,the armor hoplite always lose when fighting in melee combat with legion even the desert axemen(with just 2 shield compare to armor hoplite=5 shield),that is why we always find out how come the armor hoplite always a loser when fighting at wall.

And we can recruit spartan hoplite at Syracuse too.....

[Celt Centurion]

Army Barracks - Militia Hoplites, Hoplites (+1 Experience), Armoured Hoplites, Spartan Hoplites (Sparta only).

Unless you build it in Sparta, Army Barracks are useless, +1 experience to Hoplites is not enough to make you recruit them over Armoured Hoplites.

The last time I played as the Greek Cities, I was able to also train Spartan Hoplites at Syracuse as well. Place an Army barracks there and see what happens.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Hi there Shieldmaiden,

Care to explain that..?

I think that he is suggesting that you tone down the number of hit-points that Spartans have - that is the number of hits the Spartan can take, without the consideration of his armour, before his death. The almighty Spartans have two hitpoints which is what makes them the elite fighting force on the battlefield that they are - most units only have one. Without that extra hit point they would, on average, be not as powerful in their attacks and would probably die faster than, say, armoured hoplites due the fact that they have less armour.

How would switching it round (3rd level +1 Exp to Hoplite, remove Armoured until 4th level) effect the Greeks balance in comparison to other factions?

Unfortunately, I doubt it would make any difference to their survivability. The experience bonuses only add an extra point onto attack and defence skill which, sadly, wouldn't do very much in helping the Greek Cities survive any more than it could already. Perhaps the best option would be a little bit of statistic balancing for the Greek Cities - granting them more powerful statistics - enabling them to beat pikemen and legionaries with their spears. Unfortunately, I don't really know much about the modding side of R:TW so I can't really help you there. Hope this helps you, cheers!

[Third spearman from the left]

I don't understand why you would take the hit point off the spartans?

They can't be that over powered otherwise the greeks would be doing better and would this not weakend the greeks even further?

[Shieldmaiden]

The almighty Spartans have two hitpoints which is what makes them the elite fighting force on the battlefield that they are - most units only have one.

Yes, I'd hope an uber elite unit like Spartans would be kind of uber too.

They can't be that over powered otherwise the greeks would be doing better and would this not weakend the greeks even further?

Agreed.

Its not the Greek units - I'm doing fine, though siegeing seems a mite harder - its just the geography and neighbours that are tough, especially if the Greeks are CPU controlled. I keep seeing it with the Seleucid Empire too.

The last time I played as the Greek Cities, I was able to also train Spartan Hoplites at Syracuse as well.

Apologies to Celt Centurion and guineawolf, your right hidden_resource Sparta applies to the cities of Sparta and Syracuse.

Unfortunately, I doubt it would make any difference to their survivability.

True, but its the progression and balancing for human controlled Greeks I'm interested in. The AI is rubbish tactically and phalanx units need a little finesse.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

True, but its the progression and balancing for human controlled Greeks I'm interested in.

Sorry - I misunderstood you.

May I suggest that you try a small system which I have always wanted to place in my games, yet have been too stupid to work out which text file requires changing. I don't think it would do too much, yet, to me, it seems quite logical - although, my logic is quite idiotic and not very logical at all, so you will have to bear with me on this one!

It is quite a complex system which involves an extra valour point for every unit once you have upgraded the barracks above each level which is required for them to be trained. For example:
Barracks Level I - Militia Hoplites
Barracks Level II - Militia Hoplites (with one experience point) Hoplites
Barracks Level III - Militia Hoplites (with two experience points) Hoplites (with one experience point) Armoured Hoplites
Barracks Level IV - Militia Hoplites (with three experience points) Hoplites (with two experience points) Armoured Hoplites (with one experience point) Spartan Hoplites

The basis behind the idea is that better training facilities would have, realistically, produced better trained and improved units. It's a little idiotic and, perhaps, even bordering pathetic, yet I hope it is what you are looking for, cheers!

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Yes, I'd hope an uber elite unit like Spartans would be kind of uber too.

The uber Spartan hoplite was only an echo of the past in roman times 300 years gone. With one HP and secondary attack of 12 they nare still great fighters. Using your Armored Hoplites out of phallanx mode and fighting with secondary weapons gives you principes quality shock infantry. The heavy peltrasts are the best skirmishers in the game. Nothing wrong with the tech tree for greeks IMHO. If anything they need a nerf.

[Shieldmaiden]

Omanes!

You meant sensible, not stupid

For an example, look up Roman Barracks and Stables pre-Marius

It is quite a complex system which involves an extra valour point for every unit once you have upgraded the barracks above each level which is required for them to be trained. For example:
Barracks Level I - Militia Hoplites
Barracks Level II - Militia Hoplites (with one experience point) Hoplites
Barracks Level III - Militia Hoplites (with two experience points) Hoplites (with one experience point) Armoured Hoplites
Barracks Level IV - Militia Hoplites (with three experience points) Hoplites (with two experience points) Armoured Hoplites (with one experience point) Spartan Hoplites

This is quite simple to mod.

Open RTW/Data/export_descr_buildings.txt (backup 1st).

Find building_barracks, and Level II (militia_barracks) the lines:

recruit "greek hoplite militia" 0 requires factions { greek, }
recruit "greek hoplite" 0 requires factions { greek_cities, }

The number following the unit name is its experience when recruited. To add a bonus just change 0 to 1, etc:

recruit "greek hoplite militia" 1 requires factions { greek, }

Progressing to Level III (city_barracks):

recruit "greek hoplite militia" 2 requires factions { greek, }
recruit "greek hoplite" 1 requires factions { greek_cities, }
recruit "greek hoplite elite" 0 requires factions { greek_cities, }

And Level IV (royal_barracks):

recruit "greek hoplite militia" 3 requires factions { greek, }
recruit "greek hoplite" 2 requires factions { greek_cities, }
recruit "greek hoplite elite" 1 requires factions { greek_cities, }

Hope that gives you a few pointers.

Nothing wrong with the tech tree for greeks IMHO. If anything they need a nerf.

I'm coping fine testing my Greeks, no Armoured Hoplites until level 4 barracks, the earlier +1 exp to Hoplites from level 3 barracks is nice but not that noticable. My armies consist of mostly Hoplites and Archers, a few Heavy Peltasts and Greek Cavalry.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Thanks! I'll put that into my R:TW build when I re-install it. Thanks again!

[Shieldmaiden]

Your welcome.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Of course they will cope fine when you play them, what i have been saying all along is that the AI controlled Greek cities will get eliminated earlier

[Shieldmaiden]

I'll bear that in mind.

I honestly doubt I'll see a noticable difference though. Its geography and pressure that defeats the Greek Cities.

Its a good point and I'll be noting down Greek defeat dates in my campaigns (vanilla and tweaked) with other Factions to try and test it a little.

[Stuperman]

Isn't a lot of that exp from the temple of nike? I like being to train single silver cheveron Hopelites with the later barracks.

[mightilyoats]

When the AI controls the Greeks, remember that all battles are auto resolved. I don't know the mechanics of auto resolve, but I think an army will get penalties if it doesn't have strong cav. (Take the Seleucids. They always build these MASSIVE armies full of militia hoplites.) I don't think the auto resolve accounts for the phalanx formation.

[Shieldmaiden]

Yes, assuming AI autocalc considers troop types certain factions are penalized just by their tech tree.

Regarding the original experience tweaking thing, I'm assuming AI autocalc is effected by troop experience and upgrades.

[mightilyoats]

Yes, I believe it is. Autocalc has cost me in the past, where I field a good army (suited for my own battle style) against those horrible gold armor, gold weapon, lots of experience peasant rebels. You know, the ones that spring up if a town rebels...

In fact, if you mod a unit to have lots of armor and attack (also add exp), they will easily win any auto calc battle. I think the game calculates the outcome based on the actual stats of the units involved, also keeping in mind the rock-paper-scissors effect.

And also (I have the tedious speaker trait), 1 exp = +1 defence + 1 attack. I can't confirm, but: 9 exp = +9 defence +9attack (from base stats). So that will tip the balance in auto calc as well.

[Poulp']

I can't say for sure but I have observed that experience seems to give morale too.

+1 exp means +1 attack (both primary and secondary) +1 defensive skill and +1 morale... quite a powerful combo

[Shieldmaiden]

I can't say for sure but I have observed that experience seems to give morale too.

Yes, I believe thats correct.

Talking about auto, does anybody know about ship battles? I see Admirals can gain +1 Morale and Command traits so I'm assume the same modifiers as land battles?

Update: Greek campaign +1 experience Hoplites are doing well without Armoured 1's against the Brutii and Dacians, M/VH difficulty. Ok I know its a minor tweak but its fun to try

Also playing as Scipii and thinking about tweaking Town Watch units to give a law bonus - having to garrison my immaculate marble Roman cities with filthy Peasants everytime cos of population size is irritating.

Back on topic, ahem