Tarentum too strong?

**HamilcarBarca** · 05-30-2007, 05:52

Ok, now where did you get that? Mammertines and rivalry between city states, yep, but Qarthadastim driving Pyrros out? Nope. Unless you call losing Eryx to Pyrrhos and trying to make a lasting peace with him, holding on to their cities at Sicily "a dastardly ploy to keep him occupied"

Yes, Pyrros defeated the Carthaginian field army, and stormed Eyrnx and Panormus; but his siege of Punic Lilybaeum was a disaster. The exactions of Pyrros to maintain the siege triggered Siciliot dissent; Pyrros responded harshly, excuting or exiling those Siciliot tyrants that had originally requested he come to Sicily to lead them, and thereby triggered the Siciliot factions into betraying him.

Forced to abandon the siege, Plutarch in his Lives describes how many of the cities of Sicily reverted to Carthage, Siciliot tyrants and even the Mamertines.

In evacuating Sicily, Pyrros' fleet was shattered by the Carthaginian fleet, while the retreat of Pyrrus' land forces were shadowed by an army of 10,000 Mamertines.

Pyrros departed Sicily a thoroughly defeated man.

Had he [Pyrros] been victorious in Sparta at 272 BC, being a ruler of both Sparta and Macedon, what do you think Antigonos Gonatas would, or could do?

Pyrros was never aiming to make himself "King" of Sparta; he was seeking to install in power a client. And you have a certainty of Pyrros future in Macedon that I think is unwarranted. I think Pyrros' forays across the Greek stage in 272 amounted to the last spasms of a condottiere rather than a considered strategy to recover his (already shattered) political ambitions.

I agree that having 3 factions in Greece is good; it creates a competition for Greece that is exciting and historical. But Epiros in 272 is not the lead candidate to be the third; I think the Achaean League and the Aetolian League ar better "Hellenistic" options for a game beginning in 272 IMHO.

At the beginning of the game Epeiros is a rising power. Historically it is true, that the kingdoms fortunes rose and fell on the whims of a single man. But had that man succeeded, there is no telling what sort of mark they would have left on history. Pyrrhos was as much a military and political genious as Julius Caesar. They where both opportunists. The only difference is, the other gambled and lost. The other gambled and won an empire. Along with everlasting fame. Might just as easily have been the other way around.
Nothing justifies removing Epeiros as a faction. Period.

Well, if we want a game that enables us to re-enact the meteoric career of Pyrros, start it in 280 BC. It isn't a rising power in 272; its a broken force in Italy and Sicily, and nearly so in Greece - where Pyrros had a field army he could only maintain by rapine and plunder, and by the end of 272 both he and it had ceased to exist.

But if the decision to keep Epiros is irrevocable, then at least consider reducing the garrison at Taras so that it resembles a forlon hope only days away from final surrender, rather than a beach-head for a super power!

H.

**MarcusAureliusAntoninus** · 05-30-2007, 06:14

This subject has been discussed internally and changes are going to be made to the garrison at Taras. It will be easier for Rome to take the city in the future, though they probably won't decide to. AI loves killing 'rebels'.

As to the Pyrrhus/Epirus argument:

**mlp071** · 05-30-2007, 07:10

I was doing some testings , just for fun of it .

Even if you remove barracks in Tarentum (representing Epeiros garrison withdrawal in 272), and all units, and i mean to leave Tarentum fully empty, Roman AI will :

- go south but still ignore Tarentum or,

- by the time they finaly get to Tarentum, it will take them 3-4 turns and they will be 3-4 units of hoplitai haploi in there. Romans will try to take it once with inferior force, fail , then ignore it completely again.

So it's not garrison , but AI inability.

I even tried place units from Capua and Arpi literally next to Tarentum walls ,with only general inside , and Romans would just walked away towards north or Rhegion.

Only way i see it to get Romans to take Tarentum, for sure, is if you fully emptied town from Epeiros and place Roman army next to the walls of empty city. Hopefully they will walk in then, lol.

**pockettank** · 05-30-2007, 21:10

well in my KH campaingn (KH = best faction) its like 244ish and i pushed epirites out of greece at the start of the game and when i reasently took Syracuse from the eluethroi the epirittes them steamrolled through Rhegion and Messana all of a sudden and attacked me but i beat back there force and took messana/rhegium after watchin like 20+ years of constant besiging of Taras and Arpi =p so the Garrison deffinitly should b weakended

**Imperator** · 05-31-2007, 00:50

If the problem is with the Rome AI, why not just try to make the Romans more willing to expand south? Didn't the team have a similiar problem with Bakria, which also always went North into the steppe instead of South in Seleucid lands or India? Well, whoever fixed up Baktria should have a look at Rome, and try to "persuade" the Roman AI that South is where the money is. That way the Romans don't swallow Gaul and Germania so quickly- I rather like seeing the Celts fight it out, and would prefer to see the Romans fighting in Sicily.

**HamilcarBarca** · 05-31-2007, 01:35

What if Rhegion is not Rebel - would that change things?

In 272 it was held by a Campanian force that had been sent there by Rome as a garrison, but had seized the city fo themselves, following the example of the nearby Mamertines.

So it would be a bit of a stretch - but what if it started as being a Roman province. Would Taras be targeted then?

H.

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 05-31-2007, 02:36

Rhegion will start as a Roman rebel sub faction held province (there are none of those in the build currently) so there is a slight hope/expectation that they might look there first instead of to the north. The culture and creator of the province will still be Greek though, but the owner will be Roman rebel sub faction.

**LusitanianWolf** · 05-31-2007, 19:45

Wow, I dont want to see Epirus gone! I'm actualy playing with them and loving!!!

I think the problem is realy in the AI... Taras is useless to Epirus at begining and very usefull to Romani, but Epirot AI use to spent money rienforcing it and Roman AI dont make it an priority. And about making Taras rebeling after few turns to the Eleutheroi? Pyrrus power was decreasing in Italy, so that would not be unhistorical at all... And that would surely make Romans to take it soon.

**Danest** · 06-02-2007, 03:30

Clearly the AI has degrees of at-war hatred toward the player, and I assume other than setting the countries to "at war" there is no way to set them to "ultra hateful stack-spamming angry" ;) Which, I suppose, would be sufficient to get Rome to Take Taras right away...