Fallout 3 discussion

[Lemur]

There's so much news coming out so fast, I was getting a little dizzy trying to track it all down and decipher the meanings. And the longstanding Fallout boards are just, well, mean. They're lovers who've been spurned so often that all of their affection has metastasized into hate.

So I found a neat little Fallout blog that's doing a good job of posting the relevant new info as it emerges. Thought I'd share.

[Phatose]

Well, with all due fairness, the meanness of the fallout boards lately is as much because of the number of people who've decided to come in and start flaming. They're certainly opinionated on a normal basis, but as of late they're also the bear people can't seem to poke enough with the stick.


As for the game itself, most of what they've shown so far has potential. Unfortunately, it's pretty much universally potential to be great, but also potential to stink to high holy heaven.

After being burned twice with Morrowind and Oblivion, I'm expecting it to be an 'eventually pick it up when it hits the $19.99 mark'. I'd rather hope for a used game, since at least that way I'm not putting any cash into Bethesda's coffers before I know if it's gonna suck or not, but used PC games are very hard to find anymore.

If the duck and cover and NMA guys give it raving reviews, then I'd probably buy full price. But they won't. And the rest of the gaming media and community...well, they talked me into Oblivion, so I don't trust them much.

[TinCow]

They're certainly opinionated on a normal basis, but as of late they're also the bear people can't seem to poke enough with the stick.

This is very true. I still find myself reading NMA a couple times a week for the 'gawk-factor.' Why is that? What is so compelling about that group that draws people to watch it even when they don't really care about what the people are arguing about?

[Whacker]

This is very true. I still find myself reading NMA a couple times a week for the 'gawk-factor.' Why is that? What is so compelling about that group that draws people to watch it even when they don't really care about what the people are arguing about?

Because some of us actually agree with some or all of what they are saying. The hard truth and reality of it is that the Fallout franchise and games have survived only because of the hardcore fans like them, not through other developer's attempts at actively destroying the game. Witness FOB(P)OS.

The problem is twofold as I see it, and neither trumps the other.

First, you have the 'hardcore' Fallout types, of which a few vocal minority ruin it for the rest of us. These few are extremely rude, condescending, and do nothing but flame and complain loudly and the most extravagant manner possible. You want to see a real jerk? Look up some posts by a guy named "Roshambo" on the NMA and RPGcodex forums. He epitomizes everything that is wrong with us self-identified 'old school' types.

Second, you have the hideous amounts of incredibly ignorant and equally as obnoxious and loud Bethesda Fanboys©. If anything these guys annoy me more, because Fanboyism in any shape or form is the bane of my gaming existence. The deal is there seems to be far more of these people, and when you get these guys going with a good head of steam, it can often tend to draw the FPS crowd types that Beth has hooked with Oblivion right along with them, thus creating this hellish synergy. Combine this with the NMA rude types, and you've got a seething mass of sheer hatred and angst that can really destroy braincells of people who suffer through reading those posts. "Bethesda can do no wrong, You guys need to get with the times, Turn-based is old and busted, These are definitely RPGs and you guys have no clue even though you've been playing real RPGs since before quite a few of us were born", etc etc etc. It's all just one big mass of .

My opinion hasn't changed one bit on this game since we finally started getting info. I was hopefully skeptical, then disgusted when my fears were realized. No turn-based combat, SPECIAL appears to have been gutted contrary to what many say, just like what Beth did with Arena to Daggerfall to Morrowind to Oblivion, and instead of super mutants we have something that resembles The Hulk Meets A Cave Troll, coupled with the super mega awesome Nukuler Warhead Launcher. As I still say, more power to the folks who look forward to this game and can possibly enjoy it. It's definitely off my radar though.

[Lemur]

Well, with all due fairness, the meanness of the fallout boards lately is as much because of the number of people who've decided to come in and start flaming.

Second, you have the hideous amounts of incredibly ignorant and equally as obnoxious and loud Bethesda Fanboys©.

I'm sure the Bethesda fanbois are a pain, but please, I gotta call both of you on this. The Fallout fan boards were brimming with hate long, long before Bethesda was even rumored to be purchasing the rights to Fallout. If some clueless Oblivion-loving fellows have made themselves convenient targets, well, that's too bad for them, isn't it?

But the hate and anger go a lot deeper, and are much older than what you're implying. Heck, I remember how ugly things were getting on the Interplay boards around the time of Fallout Tactics. This is an old anger, a deep, entrenched grudge. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if, upon their deaths, some of the haters from NMA begin coming back to hate from the dead. It will all be very J-horror, you know, "Play this web game and ten days later you die."

[Bob the Insane]

All this talk has made me dig out the old Oblivion for the PC and get some of those mods in... With something to kill the leveling system it works much better... And with a better system that prevented you being the holiest holy and the evilest evil at the same time and better definied NPCs it would have been a way better RPG experience IMO...

As they have basically promised these items for Fallout 3 I don't think it is all doom and gloom as long as you can deal with the whole FPS nature of the gameplay...

[Phatose]

I'm sure the Bethesda fanbois are a pain, but please, I gotta call both of you on this. The Fallout fan boards were brimming with hate long, long before Bethesda was even rumored to be purchasing the rights to Fallout. If some clueless Oblivion-loving fellows have made themselves convenient targets, well, that's too bad for them, isn't it?

But the hate and anger go a lot deeper, and are much older than what you're implying. Heck, I remember how ugly things were getting on the Interplay boards around the time of Fallout Tactics. This is an old anger, a deep, entrenched grudge. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if, upon their deaths, some of the haters from NMA begin coming back to hate from the dead. It will all be very J-horror, you know, "Play this web game and ten days later you die."

There are definitely some very pissed off, nearly insane fallout fanboys out there, who have been for a long time. And, well, if FO2 wasn't FO enough to please these guys, then between FOT, BoS, and FO3, they're gonna be nuts.

Find me a community without a psycho or two and I'll show you a very small community.

It's just these days, even the more mild of the Fallout Fans are being aggravated for sport. It's more then just the extremists. It's the entire community. And while there are certainly Bethesda fanboys who are there just to preach, there are also plenty of people there who really have no stake in the matter whatsoever who are just there because they heard fallout fans were all nuts and want to throw the rock at the hornets nests.

Repeat this everywhere on the net, and the entire community is gonna be on edge.



@Bob:

Well, they haven't actually promised to kill the leveling system. It's been altered so at to not be so far reaching, but "fit zone to player level" is still in there.

[TB666]

Well, they haven't actually promised to kill the leveling system. It's been altered so at to not be so far reaching, but "fit zone to player level" is still in there.

And where have you read that ??
I know that they said that level scaling is gone and just like in Fallout there are areas that you can't enter if you are too low-level.

[TinCow]

Because some of us actually agree with some or all of what they are saying. The hard truth and reality of it is that the Fallout franchise and games have survived only because of the hardcore fans like them, not through other developer's attempts at actively destroying the game. Witness FOB(P)OS.

That doesn't explain it at all. How can the reason behind my interest be "some of us actually agree" when I don't agree? It seems to me to be more of a Jerry Springeresque episode in text form. It's not actually interesting, but it's too mesmerizing to turn away.

And sorry, but I most certainly do not agree that the Fallout franchise has survived because of hardcore fans like them. If anything, I would say it has survived in spite of them. If the franchise had truly survived because of them, it would have survived in the original FO1/FO2 format. We are now three games and a decade past that, with nothing even approaching a return to the original format at all. The only attempt at doing it (Van Buren) was canceled.

No, Fallout has survived simply because the underlying concept was so damned good that it is consistently appealing, in whatever form it takes. Fallout is still alive today because of the stylish post-apoc setting that it embodies, not because of action points.

[Bob the Insane]

And where have you read that ??
I know that they said that level scaling is gone and just like in Fallout there are areas that you can't enter if you are too low-level.

He is right, it is referenced in the blog linked above...

Areas of the world that you have not entered yet level up with the player as a whole within limited parameters (minimum and maximum levels I guess) until you enter that area at which point it's overall level is locked and will not change should you return later with your now higher level character...

Kind of maintain the challenge, but still having initially dangerous places and preventing bandits appearing in the best gear... Sort of have your cake and eat it... Will have to see if it works...

Finally, I totally agree with TinCow's summary on the popularity of the setting of Fallout rather than the mechanics...

[Phatose]

And where have you read that ??
I know that they said that level scaling is gone and just like in Fallout there are areas that you can't enter if you are too low-level.

http://fallout3.wordpress.com/2007/0...-on-fallout-3/



As for why fallout's alive, it's not mechanics or setting.
It's just that using somebodies existing world was cheaper then making up a new one. It's not the special romance of fallout, or the dedication of fans to SPECIAL, or the setting or the ambiance or anything.

They could've bought a road warrior license, or made up their own post-apoc setting. This was cheaper. They're obviously not gunning for the existing fanbase, so it's not like they're trying to cash in on the warm and fuzzy feeling people get from the name.

It's that Interplay was having a fire sale, and Bethesda felt like diversifying. Nothing more then that.

[Lemur]

They could've bought a road warrior license, or made up their own post-apoc setting. This was cheaper.

What a strange thing to say. They paid a good deal of money for the license, and they could have gotten rights to Wasteland for much less. There are tons of post-apocalypse books they could have plundered for less money. And how do you figure that doing their own take on the genre would be more expensive than paying a few million for an existing property?

I mean, hey, dump on Bethesda all you like, but try to make sense when you do so.

[Phatose]

How much do you think a skilled designer or team of designers to fully develop a brand new IP, that has to be marketable and usable in a game, is going to cost?

They've got to create the entire world, smooth out incosistencies, create a style and theme, populate it in a way that won't have lawyers for other post apoc IP looking for a lawsuit, while at the same time ensuring it's going to be usable in a game and marketable?


Developing a new IP ain't cheap. Even getting an underdeveloped one up to snuff is going to cost quite a bit. This is the root of why people buy IP to begin with, or license other peoples.

[Bob the Insane]

I think we may be forgeting the geek factor... I mean the accounts at Bethsoft may not be geeks but the project management surely is and many of the programmers and there is plently of Kudos in the gaming world associated with a name like Fallout...

[Lemur]

Developing a new IP ain't cheap. Even getting an underdeveloped one up to snuff is going to cost quite a bit. This is the root of why people buy IP to begin with, or license other peoples.

Well, this is all a bit meaningless without some real data to back up your claims. Who says they have to have skilled designers? Why can't they hire hacks? If they're as cost-conscious as you assert, I can't see why they wouldn't. There are plenty of ways to cut corners and lower costs. BMX-XXX is a prime example. No expensive design involved.

Your assertion that paying several million dollars for a ten-year-old IP was done for cost savings is kinda out there, and unless you can find some data to support it, I'm gonna have to walk away whistling.

[Whacker]

Not only that, they purchased an IP with a large fanbase that is openly hostile to them. And there's not "only a few of them" (us, since Beth isn't on my good side lately?) either, despite what some may think.

[AntiochusIII]

Oi, people! Let the game come out first before setting it on fire will ya?

I'm not keeping high hopes because high hopes always disappoint me :P Will be waiting 'round here for word of mouth from fellow Org members before jumping the gun, but if it's not going to be world-shattering stellar then at least it probably won't be too bad...unless you go in with an attitude of "this is gonna sucks no matter what" which I suspect some of you already take.

As a never-played-Fallout-in-my-life outsider I have to agree with TB666 however, I don't think Bethesda was trying to "save" money by buying a game franchise at a seven digits price; after all, they seem to do just fine with their Elder Scrolls franchise even though the latest installment, Oblivion, is really just Generic Fantasy Storyline 101 at its core. Rather, I think it's because Fallout sounds so cool. Post Apocalyptic world RPG's -- set in California no less, and with the 50's atmosphere -- aren't very common this side of the Pacific. You've got to be pretty good to make it work in a Western RPG really.

[TB666]

Post Apocalyptic world RPG's -- set in California no less, and with the 50's atmosphere -- aren't very common this side of the Pacific. You've got to be pretty good to make it work in a Western RPG really.

Well Fallout 3 will be set on the east coast if I remember correctly.
However saying that the are saving money by buying the rights to fallout 3 is a bit strange.
They spent alot of money getting the license and it would have been cheaper for them to make their own post-apocalyptic world.
Of course it would be alot more work for them to create the background story, design, animals and other critters etc which they get with the fallout license.

But agree, let's wait until the game comes out before bashing it.
It may turn out to be a good sequel or may turn out bad.
I guess that's what makes it interesting and I will try to keep an open mind about things.

[Lemur]

NMA snuck two reporters into a walkthrough Bethesda held in Germany. Sweet! Full article here.

NMA's staff covering this consists of Brother None (referred to as "I" in the preview) and SuAside, both of whom applied for the demo showing in name of another media company: Brother None thanks to GamerNode, SuAside thanks to MadShrimps.be. Silencer, who applied in the name of NMA, was turned down with no reason given (though it is worth noting he applied last, a day after Brother None's appointment was finalized). SuAside saw the demo Friday at 12:00, Brother None at 14:00, so details vary and it will be noted in the walkthrough when they do significantly. At no point in the demo or Q&A did NMA's staff identify themselves as from NMA.

Those sneaky fellas. Kudos!

[TinCow]

Those two NMA guys did a remarkably good job of being objective and I salute them for reporting things exactly as they saw it. I really do not see much bias at all in their recounting of events... it's simply what they saw. The summary is far more biased, but it's an expression of how they feel, so that's to be expected. Even so, I agree with much of what they said.

Fallout 3 looks like a well-produced, very pretty, very fun game that'll provide quite a few people with a lot of hours of enjoyment. However, I don't think it's anything more than a very pretty and fun game.

...

But what does that mean? Pretty much that we're looking at a pretty bland, uninspired game here, and that people expecting the next big break-through in RPGs or gaming in general to come from here should probably look the other way. And who knows how it'll hold up against competing RPG or RPG-like games in late 2008? Only time will tell. But suffice it to say that despite flashes of brilliances, I'm not overly impressed by this game, and hate to see a franchise tag that once stood for being so different now applied to something that is so humdrum and potentially dull.

I think this is spot on (except for the potentially dull comment). The more I read about it, the less I think it will really be a true 'Fallout' game. That said, I don't really see that as a negative. Sure, another isometric Fallout clone would be interesting, but I won't die without one. As long as it is a fun ride, it will be worth the ticket price.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Apparently, in the demo, a super mutant got his leg blown off with a .22 caliber bullet.

This is the size of a pistol that fires a .22:

So I guess one must hope they still going to work on that, or maybe they're just exploding limb happy.

CR

[econ21]

I don't get these calibres. IIRC, in the original Fallouts, there was a hulking pistol called the .223 which did a lot of damage. A google search suggests that calibre is roughly equivalent to the 5.56mm NATO round. I'm not sure why an extra 0.003 should make a big difference.

[Xiahou]

NMA snuck two reporters into a walkthrough Bethesda held in Germany. Sweet! Full article here.

NMA's staff covering this consists of Brother None (referred to as "I" in the preview) and SuAside, both of whom applied for the demo showing in name of another media company: Brother None thanks to GamerNode, SuAside thanks to MadShrimps.be. Silencer, who applied in the name of NMA, was turned down with no reason given (though it is worth noting he applied last, a day after Brother None's appointment was finalized). SuAside saw the demo Friday at 12:00, Brother None at 14:00, so details vary and it will be noted in the walkthrough when they do significantly. At no point in the demo or Q&A did NMA's staff identify themselves as from NMA.

Those sneaky fellas. Kudos!

You know, I'm actually slightly encouraged by the Q&A excerpts. It seems that the devs are really trying to be respectful of the series while trying to design a game that won't be a complete flop. But the truth is, I really won't know how it is until I've actually played it.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I don't get these calibres. IIRC, in the original Fallouts, there was a hulking pistol called the .223 which did a lot of damage. A google search suggests that calibre is roughly equivalent to the 5.56mm NATO round. I'm not sure why an extra 0.003 should make a big difference.

It's not the size so much as the power, in gunpowder, behind the bullet. The .223 is a bit longer, not just wider.

That gives the .223 much more kinetic energy than the .22.

The .223 is a rifle cartridge, but there are a few unique pistols that can fire it, and it would have much more power than a normal pistol round.

Here's a size comparison:
The .22 is on the left (well, a air gun pellet is on the extreme left), the .223 is in the middle (I'm not quite sure on the one on the right):


CR

[TB666]

Fallout 3 looks like a well-produced, very pretty, very fun game that'll provide quite a few people with a lot of hours of enjoyment. However, I don't think it's anything more than a very pretty and fun game.

And having a very pretty and fun game is bad ??
All I look for in a game is a pretty and fun game.
I really don't know what the NMA people want and the more I read from them the more I get confirmed that they want something that has and never will happened.
Fallout series was suppose to be a fun game and that's all it is, a fun game.
Maybe one day they will realise this and stop looking for the messiah of gaming, stop worshipping their Fallout 2 cds and start enjoying the things that are here.
They might be surprised that there is alot of fun games out there, some that are even better then Fallout.

NMA: Is there more to supermutants than meets the eyes or are they just the evil enemy?

Pete Hines: There's definitely a backstory. Actually, people have been discussing this a lot, "what are supermutants doing on the East Coast," while the reason is a pretty good and simple one. We're kind of surprised nobody has figured it out yet.

So maybe my theory is true.
Someone on the east coast is copying the dude from Fallout 1.

[doc_bean]

And having a very pretty and fun game is bad ??

I don't get it either.

You can't design the next big thing, if you try you just get Daikatana or (if you are a little more lucky) a Lionhead game. I'm glad they are focussing on making a good game instead of trying to make 'the next big thing'.

It's ironic that people hoping for 'the next big thing' are still worshipping a game made over a decade ago though. Something tells me they don't really want anything revolutionary.

[TB666]

Something tells me they don't really want anything revolutionary.

Thinks so too.
Slap a fallout 3 sticker on a Fallout 2 cd and they will be shouting over the roof-tops and praisng Beth's name.
Seriously, sometimes I wonder if they actually know what they want in the first place.
Kinda like those people afraid to do anything because the universe might implode.

Beth: Ok, let's change this
NMA: No no no no no no no don't touch it, for raptor-jesus's sake don't touch it.
Beth: Why not ??
NMA: I don't know just don't touch it
Beth: Well we gotta do something, can't just leave it like this.
NMA: yes we can
Beth: No we can't, let's atleast remove some of these bugs that makes the game crash every 30 minutes or so.
NMA: no no no no no, it's one of the main pillar of the game's gameplay.
Beth: What, getting booted to windows often ??
NMA: Yes, gives you a chance to admire your desktop wallpaper.
Beth: Ok, let's atleast add auto-save.
NMA: NO !!
Beth: *knocks NMA out*
Beth: Now, let's make us a sequel.

[econ21]

Just copying and pasting something from the Bioshock gameplay thread:

I love the iconography in both the city and the game menus... reminds me of Fallout 2... in fact this feels like an FPS version of it.

On reflection, I agree with Papewaio. Bioshock shows you could make a compelling Fallout style game in first person real time style. Bioshock is also a good example of keeping the essence of a title (from System Shock 2), but modernising it and improving it in some ways (the camera; the mini-map and quest directions; weapon balance).

I'm not sure Bethesda can pull something similar off with Fallout 3, but that's more to do with the content (e.g. I'm not keen on the sound of those mini-nuke explosions) than the game style.

[Phatose]

With all due respect, Bioshock has gotten a pretty big bye from the System Shock fans on account of being a spiritual successor, not a direct sequel. If it had been system shock 3, they'd be ripping into the core gameplay mercilessly. It has some steps forward, but also some leaps backward.

[econ21]

With all due respect, Bioshock has gotten a pretty big bye from the System Shock fans on account of being a spiritual successor, not a direct sequel.

Well, as with Fallout, "the fans" are not a monolithic bloc. But as it happens, you are right about one fan at least - I did write off Bioshock at first. The premise just did not sound nearly as engaging as that of System Shock. And I was worried it would be too much of a shooter, not a genuine spiritual successor. However, the info that came out over the last year raised my expectations - e.g. the video of the big daddy/little sisters, arguably the best aspect of the game - and I was pleasantly surprised to see them met by the full game.

It has some steps forward, but also some leaps backward.

Indeed. I think it is not as stellar as System Shock 2 (the logs don't grip me as much and the gameplay is not so scarey). But it is much closer to being a successor than I would have imagined prior to first playing it a week ago. If Fallout 3 stands in relation to Fallout 2 as Bioshock does in relation to System Shock 2, I think most reasonable fans would be happy. But I doubt it will (given that FO3 team is new to the series, whereas Bioshock was made by some of the SS2 team).