Fallout 3 discussion

[frogbeastegg]

Nooooo! It has weapon degredation! That's one of my most hated 'features' in an RPG! Gah! Where's the point in hunting down a great weapon only to have it break or to be afraid of using it because it might!? It's just as bad if the weapons are easy to repair repeatedly; at that point it becomes a tedious and pointless chore.

There'd better be a toggle or some way to mod it out.

[Orb]

Well, I finished the first one recently (completely stunning ) and am starting up on the second as an unarmed-steal-big guns character (my FO1 character, Sophia, was a pure combatant who wasted some skill points on first aid).

The third probably won't function on my PC, so I'm not worried ;)

[Kekvit Irae]

I just saw a Fallout thread on 4chan /b/, and now I want to cry my eyes out. Bethesda just tore out all that was good and decent with Fallout and made it into Oblivion... With Guns.

RIP Fallout

Oblivion With Gunz!

Pipboy

Bethesda

More Oblivion

100% Hit Rate


May you burn for all eternity, Bethesda.

[Whacker]

Nooooo! It has weapon degredation! That's one of my most hated 'features' in an RPG! Gah! Where's the point in hunting down a great weapon only to have it break or to be afraid of using it because it might!? It's just as bad if the weapons are easy to repair repeatedly; at that point it becomes a tedious and pointless chore.

There'd better be a toggle or some way to mod it out.

Probably not, seeing how Oblivion is honestly not that moddable at all.

Look on the bright side, you'll be able to 'fix' your weapons with your repair kits, and as you use the skill to increase it you'll eventually be able to 'fix' your weapons to 125% repaired and it'll improve all weapon hits to automatic criticals with a bonus chance to automatically kill whatever it is in one hit.

Well, I finished the first one recently (completely stunning ) and am starting up on the second as an unarmed-steal-big guns character (my FO1 character, Sophia, was a pure combatant who wasted some skill points on first aid).

The third probably won't function on my PC, so I'm not worried ;)

Seriously glad to see you are enjoying the originals mate. It's simultaneously amusing and sad to see your comments about the game, esp. the ones in a previous post where you were mentioning your reactions to certain consequences based on how you played. Things like that really are a rarity these days in games that are becoming all too shallow.

@ Kek

LOL!! I'd seen the 3rd pic before, but not the other ones. Here's one of my favorites: http://www.fanmadefallout.com/IMG/ne...b_rpgcodex.gif

[Bob the Insane]

My perspective is that while this might not be the Fallout we all waited for, it may not in and of itself be a bad game (heck it would be nice to have something like Stalker only with a coherent plot and which did not crash every 5 minutes)...

Oblivion is not a bad game, a bit repetative maybe with some odd design decisions (I wonder if any RPG will every try leveling the world in line with your character again, plus being head the of goody-two-shoes guild and the dark master at the same time) but it was basically a fully functionaly RPG and fun in parts.

The old console thing is always a worry of course, even as a 360 owner I understand the effect it can have on a previously detailed and deliciously complex PC game...

I am willing to wait an see if they can learn from their mistakes (in Oblivion) and produce something worthy of the Fallout name. It really is in there best interests as a success would guarantee sales for a Fallout 4...

I am having a go at Fallout Tactics finally, fun so far... The improvements to the old engine are nice and I quite like the realtime combat (with some pausing)... I would love to have seen a Fallout RPG made with it... Fallout Episodes perhapes... Kind of like Plup Fallout...

[TB666]

Personally I never understood the term "Oblivion with guns" and it's usage as a insult.
First of all, it will be different then oblivion. It will have different leveling system, new combat system, different setting etc. Only thing that is the same is the engine which is improved and that the weapons degrade and even there they are trying something new. So really the only thing oblivion about fallout is the engine and come on, did you really think they would go 1990's and go for the top-down view to please some fans that are determined to bash them whatever they do ??
And 2nd, that term only makes me like the game more.
Oblivion was great if you ignore the leveling and skills system but luckily that won't be in Fallout.

After reading the comments on among other the fallout forum that I posted the link, I must say that I'm not surprised that Bethesda choose to ignore them. Even if Bethesda would have made Fallout 3 to be just like Fallout 2(which I'm really happy that they aren't) they would still get bashed.
Constructive critism is always good but what they are doing isn't.
They think they are doing something good but really they are doing more damage.
So if Bethesda is reading this(you never know, they might be TW fans) then I saw that keep up ignoring them and keep on making a fallout game that is fun and captures world of Fallout perfectly.

[TinCow]

Probably not, seeing how Oblivion is honestly not that moddable at all.

Ok, now that comment you have to substantiate.

[Whacker]

Ok, now that comment you have to substantiate.

Certainly sir. What all can you change in that game?

- You can make new textures and models.

- You can script things given a fair number of variables.

- You can also fiddle somewhat with the interface, thank the gods, so that the PC version doesn't have the absolutely deplorable console interface.

What can't you do?

- Add new skills and attributes

- Add/fix existing/new magicka effects (levitation for example)

- Add/fix game mechanics. This is really the biggie in my view. Things such as removing the obnoxious influence game, changing the money/barter system to the previous Morrowind style, giving the magicka/alchemy systems the depth they had in Morrowind, change how combat mechanics work, etc etc etc. All the stuff that's hardcoded and we don't have access to.

- Add new/removed weapon classes like spears, crossbows (yes I know about the admirable but mostly failed attempt), polearms; separation of bladed weapons back to short vs long, axes vs blunt, etc

- Reasonably add new content to existing or new NPCs without doing one's own voiceovers, seeing how the entire game is already VO'd (which is incredibly limiting IMO)

These are largely the same reasons I've repeatedly said M2TW isn't that moddable, even though they claim it to be "modder's heaven." As much as it pains me to admit this, Valve set the bar with their Source engine and the outstanding support they provide to their modding community. The fact that there are thousands of mod projects listed on moddb should tell us something here. Of course ID and Epic have also done bangup jobs, but not on the same scale as Valve. Being able to make a game prettier with new textures and models, and fiddling with a few numeric variables does not remotely qualify as "extensively moddable". Real modding is being able to change core gameplay mechanics to suit an individual's vision on how they want the game to change.

[TinCow]

What can't you do?

- Add new skills and attributes

True, shame that.

- Add/fix existing/new magicka effects (levitation for example)

I've seen plenty of new spell mods, so I don't quite understand. The levitation thing was due to engine limitations caused by making the cities their own cells outside the larger world. If you were able to levitate, you could go over the city walls and would find yourself in the middle of a city that didn't work. Levitiation was cheesy and easy to exploit in Morrowind anyway, so I don't consider it a big loss.

Add/fix game mechanics. This is really the biggie in my view. Things such as removing the obnoxious influence game, changing the money/barter system to the previous Morrowind style, giving the magicka/alchemy systems the depth they had in Morrowind, change how combat mechanics work, etc etc etc. All the stuff that's hardcoded and we don't have access to.

The money/barter system can most certainly be modded. You should check out the Living Economy mod which is 10x better than even Morrowind was. Alchemy has been similarly improved by modding as well and I don't see any deficiencies in comparison to Morrowind. I'm not sure what you mean by combat mechanics. If it is the style of swinging and so on, you are correct.

- Add new/removed weapon classes like spears, crossbows (yes I know about the admirable but mostly failed attempt), polearms; separation of bladed weapons back to short vs long, axes vs blunt, etc

This is the same thing as the skills/attributes problem, which I agree with.

- Reasonably add new content to existing or new NPCs without doing one's own voiceovers, seeing how the entire game is already VO'd (which is incredibly limiting IMO)

NPCs don't have to have voiceovers to work. I've seen plenty of mods with only text and no voice. The majority of them actually (which is a good thing, because most amateur voice acting is horrid). I don't see how this is a limitation at all.

These are largely the same reasons I've repeatedly said M2TW isn't that moddable, even though they claim it to be "modder's heaven." As much as it pains me to admit this, Valve set the bar with their Source engine and the outstanding support they provide to their modding community. The fact that there are thousands of mod projects listed on moddb should tell us something here. Of course ID and Epic have also done bangup jobs, but not on the same scale as Valve. Being able to make a game prettier with new textures and models, and fiddling with a few numeric variables does not remotely qualify as "extensively moddable". Real modding is being able to change core gameplay mechanics to suit an individual's vision on how they want the game to change.

True, it basically amounts to changing the content of the game and having to live with the engine it runs on. However, I don't consider that a minor thing, especially with Bethesda games which have the modding tools available from the very day of release. There is far more to Fallout than action points and isometric views. It's the storyline, the atmosphere, and the open-ended questing that are the real gem. That's exactly what can be changed/fixed with the tools Bethesda provides. I very much look forward to the wonderful story and art mods that the dedicated old school Fallout community will surely come up with. I suspect they will make Beth's F3 into a longterm classic.

[Spino]

Nooooo! It has weapon degredation! That's one of my most hated 'features' in an RPG! Gah! Where's the point in hunting down a great weapon only to have it break or to be afraid of using it because it might!? It's just as bad if the weapons are easy to repair repeatedly; at that point it becomes a tedious and pointless chore.

There'd better be a toggle or some way to mod it out.

Now that's just wrong!

[Whacker]

I've seen plenty of new spell mods, so I don't quite understand. The levitation thing was due to engine limitations caused by making the cities their own cells outside the larger world. If you were able to levitate, you could go over the city walls and would find yourself in the middle of a city that didn't work. Levitiation was cheesy and easy to exploit in Morrowind anyway, so I don't consider it a big loss.

These spell mods are all completely based on existing magicka effects. Show me one that isn't. And I'll just say this once, because it seems to be a pretty common theme in your responses to me. Just because YOU don't like it or want it, doesn't mean there aren't a very large number of others who do. That's an extremely arrogant attitude to take. You will note that in almost all of my previous posts regarding modding in games is to make it so that everyone can find an acceptable solution. That pointless "Take it out because I don't like it" or "I don't care if it's not moddable because it's fine to me" is both selfish and not constructive.

The money/barter system can most certainly be modded. You should check out the Living Economy mod which is 10x better than even Morrowind was.

Scripting a few events around the core mechanics is one thing. Changing them back to Morrowind-style "Merchant runs out of cash", "barter skill can eventually cause you to buy items for less than the merchant will pay for them" etc is another thing entirely. If you know of something like this, please point it out.

Alchemy has been similarly improved by modding as well and I don't see any deficiencies in comparison to Morrowind.

I am certainly not aware of any along the lines that you mentioned, by all means please educate me if you know of some.

I'm not sure what you mean by combat mechanics. If it is the style of swinging and so on, you are correct.

It's far more than just "style of swinging", but yes.

NPCs don't have to have voiceovers to work. I've seen plenty of mods with only text and no voice.

I already said this, did you read my post? I said it's very noticable and also pretty lame since they won't jive with the rest of the game. You are talking with an NPC who has a number of things to say, then you go into extended dialogue branches that were added by fans, and he's got nothing to say at all. (non-specific example)

The majority of them actually (which is a good thing, because most amateur voice acting is horrid).

That's pretty much what I said earlier, the amatuer stuff can and quite often is a very admirable attempt, but it doesn't come close to the quality of what the studio can produce.

I don't see how this is a limitation at all.

It very much is in terms of adding new content, for many reasons including the ones I've mentioned.

True, it basically amounts to changing the content of the game and having to live with the engine it runs on. However, I don't consider that a minor thing, especially with Bethesda games which have the modding tools available from the very day of release.

To their credit, Bethesda has done far more than CA has done in terms of 'support'. The Construction Kit certainly has far more functionality than the few 'tools' that CA has given their community, and CA also has an extensive Wiki set up that's contributed to heavily by the devs. This still utterly pales in comparison to what Valve, ID, and Epic have done though.

There is far more to Fallout than action points and isometric views.

Nice jab. I've made a point to focus on the issue at hand and not take underhanded digs at you, I expect the same courtesy, esp. from a mod.

It's the storyline, the atmosphere, and the open-ended questing that are the real gem.

Wrong, it's far more than that. People don't seem to understand that a game is more than just "story", it's the sum of it's parts, which is precisely why good gameplay mechanics are integral to having a good game. This is incidentally why I've written off FO3, because the original outstanding mechanics have been changed drastically according to that article in the gaming rag. Gameplay isn't just an afterthought, it's a key part to what makes a game and moreso a series successful. Look at the X-com games and how they went downhill after the first two.

That's exactly what can be changed/fixed with the tools Bethesda provides. I very much look forward to the wonderful story and art mods that the dedicated old school Fallout community will surely come up with. I suspect they will make Beth's F3 into a longterm classic.

Perhaps, but to the Oblivion FPS crowd, not to the Fallout RPG playing crowd.

[Csargo]

These spell mods are all completely based on existing magicka effects. Show me one that isn't. And I'll just say this once, because it seems to be a pretty common theme in your responses to me. Just because YOU don't like it or want it, doesn't mean there aren't a very large number of others who do. That's an extremely arrogant attitude to take. You will note that in almost all of my previous posts regarding modding in games is to make it so that everyone can find an acceptable solution. That pointless "Take it out because I don't like it" or "I don't care if it's not moddable because it's fine to me" is both selfish and not constructive.


Scripting a few events around the core mechanics is one thing. Changing them back to Morrowind-style "Merchant runs out of cash", "barter skill can eventually cause you to buy items for less than the merchant will pay for them" etc is another thing entirely. If you know of something like this, please point it out.


I am certainly not aware of any along the lines that you mentioned, by all means please educate me if you know of some.


It's far more than just "style of swinging", but yes.


I already said this, did you read my post? I said it's very noticable and also pretty lame since they won't jive with the rest of the game. You are talking with an NPC who has a number of things to say, then you go into extended dialogue branches that were added by fans, and he's got nothing to say at all. (non-specific example)


That's pretty much what I said earlier, the amatuer stuff can and quite often is a very admirable attempt, but it doesn't come close to the quality of what the studio can produce.


It very much is in terms of adding new content, for many reasons including the ones I've mentioned.


To their credit, Bethesda has done far more than CA has done in terms of 'support'. The Construction Kit certainly has far more functionality than the few 'tools' that CA has given their community, and CA also has an extensive Wiki set up that's contributed to heavily by the devs. This still utterly pales in comparison to what Valve, ID, and Epic have done though.



Nice jab. I've made a point to focus on the issue at hand and not take underhanded digs at you, I expect the same courtesy, esp. from a mod.


Wrong, it's far more than that. People don't seem to understand that a game is more than just "story", it's the sum of it's parts, which is precisely why good gameplay mechanics are integral to having a good game. This is incidentally why I've written off FO3, because the original outstanding mechanics have been changed drastically according to that article in the gaming rag. Gameplay isn't just an afterthought, it's a key part to what makes a game and moreso a series successful. Look at the X-com games and how they went downhill after the first two.


Perhaps, but to the Oblivion FPS crowd, not to the Fallout RPG playing crowd.

OH NO HE DIDANT!

[Whacker]

OH NO HE DIDANT!

I still fully expect you to fulfill your role in the chat and defend me against Fizzil and Disco's vicious FO3 attacks when I am not around.

[Csargo]

I still fully expect you to fulfill your role in the chat and defend me against Fizzil and Disco's vicious FO3 attacks when I am not around.

Bah humbug

[TinCow]

I'll just say this once, because it seems to be a pretty common theme in your responses to me. Just because YOU don't like it or want it, doesn't mean there aren't a very large number of others who do. That's an extremely arrogant attitude to take. You will note that in almost all of my previous posts regarding modding in games is to make it so that everyone can find an acceptable solution. That pointless "Take it out because I don't like it" or "I don't care if it's not moddable because it's fine to me" is both selfish and not constructive.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I have tried to make it very clear in every single one of my posts that I am talking about my personal opinion. I am not you, so I cannot see the world the way you do. I know what I like so I speak about that and I try to constantly say "in my opinion" or "personally" to make that clear. I am sorry if that comes across as selfish or non-constructive to you. That is not my intention, I simply and expressing my opinion about what I like and don't like about the games I play.

Scripting a few events around the core mechanics is one thing. Changing them back to Morrowind-style "Merchant runs out of cash", "barter skill can eventually cause you to buy items for less than the merchant will pay for them" etc is another thing entirely. If you know of something like this, please point it out.

I just did. It's called the Living Economy mod. Merchants have fixed amounts of cash and the run out. The more of an item a merchant has, the less money he will buy it for and vice versa (supply and demand). I don't have a link for it because I'm at work, but it should be very easy to find at any Oblivion modding website. It's even built-in to OOO.

I am certainly not aware of any along the lines that you mentioned, by all means please educate me if you know of some.

I don't know the name of them off the top of my head, but there are several built-in to OOO as well. Flora and Fauna something or other? There's a ton of alchemy stuff out there that will mimic any and all game effects.

I already said this, did you read my post? I said it's very noticable and also pretty lame since they won't jive with the rest of the game. You are talking with an NPC who has a number of things to say, then you go into extended dialogue branches that were added by fans, and he's got nothing to say at all. (non-specific example)

So what's the alternative, removing all voicing from the game? While I certainly wish there was a great deal more text and speech options, I personally think that the text sounds good when it is spoken. I really, really, really want them to add far more text than they did in Oblivion, but why does that mean they have to take out the voiced parts to make it mesh? For many years now, games have included a mix of text and voice, I think that works just as well with Oblivion as it did with FO1.

Nice jab. I've made a point to focus on the issue at hand and not take underhanded digs at you, I expect the same courtesy, esp. from a mod.

This is out of line. My comment was not an attack on you by any means. it was make a differentiation between the content of the game and the game engine. Please re-read my words.

I swear that nothing I am writing is a personal attack on you. Please do not take it that way. If you feel attacked by anything I have written, then I fervently apologize for it. I like responding to your posts because you have a lot of interesting things to say about Fallout and I enjoy discussing them. Your posts have made this a far more interesting thread than simply links to new screenshots.

I doubt we will agree on many aspects of FO3, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy an exchange of ideas in a civil manner. If you don't like discussing this stuff, just say so and I will stop responding to your posts.

Wrong, it's far more than that. People don't seem to understand that a game is more than just "story", it's the sum of it's parts, which is precisely why good gameplay mechanics are integral to having a good game. This is incidentally why I've written off FO3, because the original outstanding mechanics have been changed drastically according to that article in the gaming rag. Gameplay isn't just an afterthought, it's a key part to what makes a game and moreso a series successful. Look at the X-com games and how they went downhill after the first two.

In my personal opinion (this whole paragraph is personal opinion), some of the original FO gameplay mechanics were good, but some were not so good. SPECIAL was excellent. Action points were decent, though I thought the Infinity Engine did a better job with combat. FO NPC control was horrible. Inventory control was very poor. The dithering effect when behind obscuring structures was inadequate. The wasteland travel and random encounter systems were primitive and unimaginative. All of these negative things can be improved on radically (in my opinion) and so I think that all of them could be abandoned for completely new gameplay mechanics and actively improve the game. Just because one system worked well doesn't mean another system won't work even better.

[Whacker]

I just did. It's called the Living Economy mod. Merchants have fixed amounts of cash and the run out. The more of an item a merchant has, the less money he will buy it for and vice versa (supply and demand). I don't have a link for it because I'm at work, but it should be very easy to find at any Oblivion modding website. It's even built-in to OOO.

That's a new one to me, duly noted.

I don't know the name of them off the top of my head, but there are several built-in to OOO as well. Flora and Fauna something or other? There's a ton of alchemy stuff out there that will mimic any and all game effects.

Mimicing game effects is one thing, sure. I guess my point is that I'd like to see the alchemy system changed entirely back to the way it worked in Morrowind, save perhaps a few interface improvements. I am not aware of anything that does this, and as I said before, if YOU do, please let me know as I would very much like to take a look.

So what's the alternative, removing all voicing from the game?

Happy medium always. Having SOME speech is good and even to be expected. Major cutscenes, major plot events, etc, sure all those definitely I could see having voiceovers. Morrowind did a decent, but by not means perfect, job at this. The key is to make the major points interesting yet not make it so that fan-made content is not going to clash noticably with the original content, and so that new major content can be added in such a manner that it also blends in smoothly. This is where Oblivion falls flat on it's face because of that inherent limitation.

While I certainly wish there was a great deal more text and speech options, I personally think that the text sounds good when it is spoken. I really, really, really want them to add far more text than they did in Oblivion

We are of one mind here, absolutely no disagreement.

, but why does that mean they have to take out the voiced parts to make it mesh?

They don't have to remove it all, just make it far more balanced. See my response to your earlier point above.

This is out of line. My comment was not an attack on you by any means. it was make a differentiation between the content of the game and the game engine. Please re-read my words.

I swear that nothing I am writing is a personal attack on you. Please do not take it that way. If you feel attacked by anything I have written, then I fervently apologize for it. I like responding to your posts because you have a lot of interesting things to say about Fallout and I enjoy discussing them. Your posts have made this a far more interesting thread than simply links to new screenshots.

I doubt we will agree on many aspects of FO3, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy an exchange of ideas in a civil manner. If you don't like discussing this stuff, just say so and I will stop responding to your posts.

Freely given, freely accepted. My apologies for my harsh reaction, but I couldn't think of any other way to take it as such. Perhaps I need to stop spending time in the backroom, there are a lot of very angry people back there.

In my personal opinion (this whole paragraph is personal opinion), some of the original FO gameplay mechanics were good, but some were not so good. SPECIAL was excellent.

Singing the same song we are.

Action points were decent, though I thought the Infinity Engine did a better job with combat.

Meh, Bioware did a good job with making their engines work smoothly in their games. Real turn-based still has it's appeal and place. This is perhaps where we diverge in that I don't think anything other than REAL turn-based works or meshes well with the FO setting.

FO NPC control was horrible. Inventory control was very poor. The dithering effect when behind obscuring structures was inadequate.

Preaching to the choir my friend. In fact you are dead wrong, inventory control was/is mind-numbingly aggravating. And I swear I almost had an aneurism trying to keep Dogmeat alive in the Military base.

The wasteland travel and random encounter systems were primitive and unimaginative.

Partially disagree here. Primitive... meh, by today's standards sure. Unimaginative? Are you nuts?? The Monty Python skits in FO2 had me laughing so hard my wife came in to see what I was making a racket about. The random encounter system worked fine, and in such a manner that it seriously discouraged exploring certain areas unless you'd worked getting better gear and stats. I still got my tookiss handed to me at lvl 21 with HPA near the military base, when I was jumped every 1cm by a full band of super mutes, all carrying chainguns and rocket launchers.

All of these negative things can be improved on radically (in my opinion) and so I think that all of them could be abandoned for completely new gameplay mechanics and actively improve the game. Just because one system worked well doesn't mean another system won't work even better.

Well said, but the other side of the coin is that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I think this is largely one of my major problems with Bethesda in general, in that they now seem to have a very arrogant mindset that everything they touch will be gold after their Oblivion success, and they can ignore canon and precedent completely because "that previous stuff is old and busted". The sad thing is, they have enough of a fanbase at this point that the game probably will sell just fine if not well, and they'll be sure to buy absolutely glowing reviews from the major sites to "validate" this. I guess the other bit to that is they keep seeming to think they can redefine certain aspects of established genres because their sales successes 'gave them the right to'. I admittedly have not played any of their previous games except Morrowind and Oblivion, but it seems to me and others that they've firmly decided to go down the route of making action games and "deep" FPS's, and abandoning their roots of making more traditional RPG's. This in of itself doesn't bother me at all, as I said it's the fact that they have the arrogance to say "Oh it's definitely an RPG because we say it is" re: whatever product they are making, when in reality it couldn't be further from that. /shrug Take all that as you will and with a requisite amount of salt.

[TinCow]

In the interests of candor, I will state again something I have said before: I am good friends with two Bethsoft employees. I would be lying if I said this didn't influence me. In fact, I'm actually pretty biased in their favor and everything I say needs to be taken with that in mind. To be fair, I had been a big fan of Bethsoft games before I even met them, but knowing people behind the product has had an impact. Perhaps I defend them more than I should as a result.

Happy medium always. Having SOME speech is good and even to be expected. Major cutscenes, major plot events, etc, sure all those definitely I could see having voiceovers. Morrowind did a decent, but by not means perfect, job at this. The key is to make the major points interesting yet not make it so that fan-made content is not going to clash noticably with the original content, and so that new major content can be added in such a manner that it also blends in smoothly. This is where Oblivion falls flat on it's face because of that inherent limitation.

This was actually the first thing I said to the first of the Bethsoft guys I met. "Why did you cut down on the text?!" I was disappointed in the answer: upper level managed decided that voice sells, especially on consoles, and thus everything has to be voiced. I was very disappointed with the drastic cutback in text from ES3 to ES 4. Last week one of the Bethsoft guys asked me my opinion on the Game Insider preview. It was a mixed and hopeful response, but I really ranted about my fears about putting Oblivion's limited dialog into FO3. FO were dialog based games for me and I am seriously concerned that the voice-only policy will really limit FO3. I'm hoping that they will realize this and instead pay a lot more money to the actors to voice several times the quantity of dialog that they did in Oblivion.

Meh, Bioware did a good job with making their engines work smoothly in their games. Real turn-based still has it's appeal and place. This is perhaps where we diverge in that I don't think anything other than REAL turn-based works or meshes well with the FO setting.

Yeah, definitely a difference of opinion here. For RPGs, I separate the combat from the storyline. It's odd, but many CRPGs end up more as strategy games than true RPGs. That's probably one of the reasons I like them so much. That said, I find an engrossing story just as compelling as a good strategy game. Morrowind is the perfect example. The combat was pretty boring, especially when you hit high levels. I played that game for more hours than I can count, but it was never for the combat. I felt the same way about Vampire: Bloodlines. By comparison, I also loved Icewind Dale 1 & 2, which were not really RPGs at all. They were dungeon hacking tactical games and I enjoyed them at that level.

The way I feel about Fallout can be explained by my feelings about Fallout Tactics (which I'm currently replaying). Ignoring the storyline and violations of canon, the actual game itself is interesting and entertaining right up to the point where it moves off into robot-o-doom. At that point it quickly becomes boring for me because it leaves the wrecked towns, the inhabited wasteland, the struggle for normalcy in a post-apocalyptic world, and it simply becomes Fallout style combat in a different setting. I lose interest because I miss the atmosphere which I associate with Fallout. I've never seen a Fallout game with the atmosphere but without the combat, so I don't know for sure if I would like that, but I suspect that what I really enjoy most is simply the wasteland existence.

I liked Morrowind and Oblivion because I liked living in the world they created. They're definitely not the most entertaining games if you're looking for specific objectives or goals, but I realized that early on and stopped trying to find them. In contrast, I also enjoyed Doom 3 a great deal, far more than most other people did it seems. I knew from the start what it was good at and played it with those strengths in mind. I only played at night, turned off all the lights, pumped up my sound, and sat really close to the monitor. I then enjoyed what was essentially the computer game equivalent of a haunted house. I will probably never play the game a second time, but I loved it for what it was: an experience.

Partially disagree here. Primitive... meh, by today's standards sure. Unimaginative? Are you nuts?? The Monty Python skits in FO2 had me laughing so hard my wife came in to see what I was making a racket about. The random encounter system worked fine, and in such a manner that it seriously discouraged exploring certain areas unless you'd worked getting better gear and stats. I still got my tookiss handed to me at lvl 21 with HPA near the military base, when I was jumped every 1cm by a full band of super mutes, all carrying chainguns and rocket launchers.

LOL, I wasn't criticizing the actual special encounters, just the general ones and the manner in which they occurred (running around on the world map and clicking yes or no depending on your outdoorsman skill). I love the pop culture references in all their ridiculous glory. When I said unimaginative, I'm talking about your 37th encounter with bootleggers fighting slavers.

Well said, but the other side of the coin is that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I think this is largely one of my major problems with Bethesda in general, in that they now seem to have a very arrogant mindset that everything they touch will be gold after their Oblivion success, and they can ignore canon and precedent completely because "that previous stuff is old and busted". The sad thing is, they have enough of a fanbase at this point that the game probably will sell just fine if not well, and they'll be sure to buy absolutely glowing reviews from the major sites to "validate" this. I guess the other bit to that is they keep seeming to think they can redefine certain aspects of established genres because their sales successes 'gave them the right to'. I admittedly have not played any of their previous games except Morrowind and Oblivion, but it seems to me and others that they've firmly decided to go down the route of making action games and "deep" FPS's, and abandoning their roots of making more traditional RPG's. This in of itself doesn't bother me at all, as I said it's the fact that they have the arrogance to say "Oh it's definitely an RPG because we say it is" re: whatever product they are making, when in reality it couldn't be further from that. /shrug Take all that as you will and with a requisite amount of salt.

What I take from this is that you think they're guilty of false advertising. I have to agree with you on this because it's true. Their marketing department does one heck of a job. It would definitely be nice if they just straight out said what they where making. The secrecy is designed to focus more and more attention on the game. While that works wonders in driving up publicity, it inevitably disappoints people who interpreted their ambiguous words wrongly. I think there would be far fewer hostile feelings towards them if they would simply say "We're making a first person game in the Fallout universe. We're making a storyline that we think is fun but which doesn't mesh 100% with canon. We're abandoning most of the Fallout combat system because it doesn't mesh with our engine." If they did that, then people who didn't like the sound of the game would go away and ignore it and those who did would stick around. Everyone wins, but the sales are probably a bit lower.

[Xiahou]

Things such as removing the obnoxious influence game

Actually, that was one of the first mods I got. That mini-game was very anti-immersion imo, so I was glad to see a mod replace it.

[Whacker]

In the interests of candor, I will state again something I have said before: I am good friends with two Bethsoft employees. I would be lying if I said this didn't influence me. In fact, I'm actually pretty biased in their favor and everything I say needs to be taken with that in mind. To be fair, I had been a big fan of Bethsoft games before I even met them, but knowing people behind the product has had an impact. Perhaps I defend them more than I should as a result.

Hah, we're very much alike, I also have several friends "in the biz." What's even funnier is they've worked exclusively on games that I hate. One of them worked on Ghost Recon, and we already had the time-honored "Why Operation Flashpoint was a bazillion times better than Ghost Recon" argument a few times. I guess the sticking point is, can you criticize your friend's company and games (heavily even) from a more "professional" standpoint, aka as the gamer/customer, without them getting offended personally as a friend?

This was actually the first thing I said to the first of the Bethsoft guys I met. "Why did you cut down on the text?!" I was disappointed in the answer: upper level managed decided that voice sells, especially on consoles, and thus everything has to be voiced.

Bah, "Upper management" and the Marketing types are squarely to blame for the mind numbing lack of originality in terms of gaming today. Don't even get me started on the whole "Why consoles are partially to blame for the dumbing down of gaming"...

In contrast, I also enjoyed Doom 3 a great deal, far more than most other people did it seems. I knew from the start what it was good at and played it with those strengths in mind. I only played at night, turned off all the lights, pumped up my sound, and sat really close to the monitor. I then enjoyed what was essentially the computer game equivalent of a haunted house. I will probably never play the game a second time, but I loved it for what it was: an experience.

I also enjoyed the out of Doom 3, whereas a good deal of my friends thought it was mindless trash (go figure....). The key, as you so well pointed out, was to LET yourself be immersed. It was kinda hard to play it at night w/my headphones on, and my poor dog almost gave me a heart attack at one point when she came into my room unseen and nosed my leg. Also I was... erm... "inebriated" and on Teamspeak with a few friends when I finally got to Hell, that was almost a religious experience in of itself. They told me the next morning all I kept saying was "Oh... my... gawd...." and making various quotes from Event Horizon.

As for Morrowind and Oblivion, my view is that Morrowind offered a much deeper game to immerse oneself in. There were levels of complexity and enough storyline and diverse tasks to provide for a feeling of just how big the overall world was and how much there was to do. Oblivion didn't give me that whatsoever, it was basically a pretty setting to run around and kill stuff with fire. The "wow this looks great" factor tends to wear off with me very quickly with games, usually within an hour or two, at which point I start to concentrate on the story and mechanics, esp. in RPGs. This was when I started down the dark path of indifference leading up to rejection.

When I said unimaginative, I'm talking about your 37th encounter with bootleggers fighting slavers.

Putting it that way, I'd have to agree wholehearted with you there. There wasn't a heck of a lot of variety in that area, esp. in FO1. FO2 helped that a bit, but not much.

What I take from this is that you think they're guilty of false advertising. I have to agree with you on this because it's true.

I guess to simplify it, in principle yes that's a fair way to paraphrase it. It's not really that they do it, it's that they are doing it with a very neglected, dying genre that I am having withdrawl from. Sadly that's now what I tend to expect from the PR types at publishers and studios; nothing but pure BS and hype as opposed to real, well thought-out, and meaningful attempts to portray their products. Pretty much all you need these days is a large chested female brandishing a gun and a sword, making a messy headshot on critter A while simultaneously decapitating critter B in some action-packed setting, swearing up a storm while doing so, with huge explosions in the background.

Their marketing department does one heck of a job. It would definitely be nice if they just straight out said what they where making.

I'd have to disagree with you here, I think their marketing department is one of the worst in the business today. I share the general opinion with quite a few others that Todd and Pete are egotistical morons, and the gaming industry is suffering indirectly from the PR nonsense they are pulling now with FO3 and with Oblivion. Seriously, "Soil erosion"? There was(is?) a large compilation of quotes and sales bits made from the time leading up to Oblivion, and comparing them against what the actual product had. While many of them are indeed subjective, it's not hard to see overall that almost every single one of them was one of 1. blatant lie, 2. extremely inaccurate, or 3. gross exaggeration. Stunts and regular behavior like this means it's not hard to realize why so few of us take these people seriously anymore. If I can find the link to that bit, I'll PM it to you, it's at least good for a laugh even if you may not agree.

The secrecy is designed to focus more and more attention on the game. While that works wonders in driving up publicity, it inevitably disappoints people who interpreted their ambiguous words wrongly. I think there would be far fewer hostile feelings towards them if they would simply say "We're making a first person game in the Fallout universe. We're making a storyline that we think is fun but which doesn't mesh 100% with canon. We're abandoning most of the Fallout combat system because it doesn't mesh with our engine." If they did that, then people who didn't like the sound of the game would go away and ignore it and those who did would stick around. Everyone wins, but the sales are probably a bit lower.

Exactly, dead on. The all encompassing absolute bottom line, profit. There was an editorial bit written not too long ago about the general state of gaming today, and how publishers will generally strive to maximize sales, and will 'dumb down'/simplify/whatever you want to call it to their games in order to try to reach the largest number of buyers. It made complete sense to me, I mean look at the market for REAL simulation games and even RPGs right now, it's pretty thin to almost non-existent. Heck look at what CA is doing with the TW series... The gist of the article was that despite this overall trend, there are still good numbers of gamers in all respective genres that would make putting together a 'niche' game a very viable prospect financially. The obvious problem is that while it would sell, it wouldn't sell say as good as Madden 2k8 or whatever, and hence why the Execs/Marketing types would do their utmost to force the product back into that generic Let's Try To Please Everyone role. Again it all makes sense to me, it'd be real nice to see someone take that to heart and take the plunge. Perhaps it's just me being obstinate and refusing to believe/accept that real RPG players and flight sim fanatics are a dying breed.

[Whacker]

Actually, that was one of the first mods I got. That mini-game was very anti-immersion imo, so I was glad to see a mod replace it.

I would love to have a link to such a critter if you could provide one good sir.

[Xiahou]

I would love to have a link to such a critter if you could provide one good sir.

I think this is the one I DL'ed.

Here's the summary:

This mod gets rid of the persuasion mini-game in Oblivion and replaces it with a system that is more realistic and better balanced. I feel that the current system is deficient in a number of ways:
- It's relatively easy to raise someone's disposition at or near 100 with only an average speechcraft skill, making it nearly pointless to raise this skill to its highest level.
- While the security mini-game simulates picking a lock, the persuasion game is a completely abstract exercise in lining up rotating wedges. You must say the same things to every character, and your success is only dependent on the order in which you say them. R-i-i-i-ight.
- Persuasion as implemented leaves little room for role playing. You must coerce, boast, admire and joke with every person you meet, regardless of your character's personality and values, or the type of person you are talking to.

Instead, this mod implements persuasion through regular dialogue. You are free to pick any option you want, and either try the same one over and over or alternate between many. Each time you pick an option, you have a base chance of success based on your speechcraft skill. Then, your chances are modified based on the current disposition of the NPC. The higher their disposition, the harder it is to raise it further. Finally, each option has an individual modifier based on a number of factors (see the Modifiers section below), making it easier or harder to use that option with a particular NPC. For instance, you will have a much easier time coercing a farmer than you will the Arena Grand Champion, and the burly Nord in the local tavern will be more impressed by your boasting than will the Countess of Chorrol, etc. In this way, there is some amount of player skill and role playing required for successful persuasion rather than randomly clicking options.

[TinCow]

...

I shall respond to that post in a new thread, since I don't want to pull the FO3 thread off-topic.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87427

[Bob the Insane]

The way I feel about Fallout can be explained by my feelings about Fallout Tactics (which I'm currently replaying). Ignoring the storyline and violations of canon, the actual game itself is interesting and entertaining right up to the point where it moves off into robot-o-doom. At that point it quickly becomes boring for me because it leaves the wrecked towns, the inhabited wasteland, the struggle for normalcy in a post-apocalyptic world, and it simply becomes Fallout style combat in a different setting. I lose interest because I miss the atmosphere which I associate with Fallout. I've never seen a Fallout game with the atmosphere but without the combat, so I don't know for sure if I would like that, but I suspect that what I really enjoy most is simply the wasteland existence.

I really have to agree with you there, it a flavour/atmosphere thing to me more than a mechanics thing (though the dialog system will be of huge importance)... I want to revisit that world and I am not too concerned about the perspective I am viewing it from when I get there...

To be honest I got the first tingling of the "Where has the Wateland gone" right at the end of FO2 (though the RPG elements persisted of course, it did not totally devolve into a big tech fight)... And now in Tactics it is fine while you are out and about on missions, but it feels too sterile back at the bunker and by the sound of it that will only get worse...

[Lemur]

Who are we kidding? Unless the reviews are gawd-awful, we all know we're going to buy and play it. Stop pretending you won't, you're only hurting yourself.

[Whacker]

Who are we kidding? Unless the reviews are gawd-awful, we all know we're going to buy and play it. Stop pretending you won't, you're only hurting yourself.

Honestly I can't tell if you were kidding or not mate, but in all seriousness I am most definitely not going to be getting/playing this game based on the current information we have. Disco has already been telling me the exact same thing in the chat for a week or more now, and it's not working as I think he'd like it to.

[discovery1]

Honestly I can't tell if you were kidding or not mate, but in all seriousness I am most definitely not going to be getting/playing this game based on the current information we have. Disco has already been telling me the exact same thing in the chat for a week or more now, and it's not working as I think he'd like it to.

The first stage is denial.

[Lehesu]

I probably won't buy it, and I don't have any huge expectations for the game. I loved Morrowind to death and Bethesda lost a lot of rep with me over Oblivion. I fear that they, much like Creative Assembly, have sold out to the lowest common denominator of customers.

[Lemur]

Something's in the air, and that means that Fallout 3 previews are popping up like zits on a teenaged face. Here's a sampling:

Gamespot

Shacknews

Games Radar

Destructoid

Critical Hits

Joystiq

Next-Gen

There's more, but I'm getting tired of typing them. Stop pretending you won't play this game. You're only hurting yourself.

[Orb]

Lemur-san, you are mistaken.

Whether or not I (certainly) would buy this game, my computer doubtless won't run it, thus inuring me to disappointment.

[Bob the Insane]

From the Gamespot preview - Weapons and armor will deteriorate with use, but you'll be able to restore them by using your character's repair skill along with duplicate versions of whatever you're repairing. In other words, you can cannibalize parts from one item to fix another, as long as they're identical. You can't strip parts from a pistol to repair an assault rifle; you have to have the same version of assault rifle. As weapons break down, their capabilities worsen. For example, the weapon's rate of fire will slow, its accuracy will decrease, and so on. Having a fully restored weapon versus one that's falling apart is like the difference between night and day. Or, you can create your own weapons from various parts.

Sounds like the deteriorating and reparing of weapons will be a little more involved and logical than the "bang it with a hammer" approach of Oblivion...