Can we use new Japanese units in traditional campaign

[henryh]

Hi I know the mongol campaign sounds just great, but I also love the traditional 6 way campaign, does any one know if we can use the new japanese units in the old campaign? It would add an extra dimension and flavour to the original.

[solypsist]

the original game will still be there, you'll just have an option to play the mongol campaign or the shogun one. new units will be kept in the new campaign only, so no ashi crossbowmen, for example, in the campaign that starts in 1530 (the current game)


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Waittaminnit... Are you saying we won't get BNinjas, Kensai or Nagi cavalry in the basic campaign?

"Can't be..."
- Morpheus in The Matrix

It's probably just a beta version quirk. Making such a noise about them and then keeping them out of the old campaign would make no sense.

[Nelson]

I hope soly is right. Maybe these controversial units SHOULD be limited to the Mongol campaign...

It would be OK with me if the new units are segregated. For us history fans it would represent damage control. Some of us would like to turn units on and off whenever we please. If it has to be all or nothing for the Sengoku campaign, I'll opt for none of them. An option would be best, of course.

[edRonin]

According to the answer's to the questions Eradosan collected the developers do look at the forums. They might have decided to exclude the new japaneses units from of the traditional campaign because of all the negative responses about them. Soly does just have a Beta so the final game will be different and might allow for the new Japanese units in the traditional campaign.

I think most people agree the ideal solution is to allow the user to exclude units from either the multiplayer or the single player games. Those like Nelson and Soly who prefer a more historucally correct game can exclude the AC, Kensai and BFN. Me and the rest of the "Starcraft crowd" can have all the units (except Geisha, I hate the Geisha). The more flexibility they give us the happier the community will be. I think alot of the Online players would love to exclude guns and Monks from their games. It would be nice if we had that capability.

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All your base are belong to us

[Yoshitsune]

Its weird that these new units are only available for the Mongol Invasion and possibly not for Sengoku. If any 'historical' case for battlefield ninja and kensai can be made at all (and I don't believe it can) then it would only be for the later period (eg, Nobunaga's campaign in Iga). Naginata Cav only appeared from the 14thC onwards. Of course Jap ashi x-bows never existed at any period, despite what it says in the Q&A...

_______________________
All your belongings are base to us

[henryh]

Its a shame the new units aren't included I suppose it would mean a lot of ai reworking in the original, but it would be great! As my only beef with the new campaign there is no diplomatic element to it and the role of Hojo and Mongol is to clearly defined. I liked the initial ambiguity of the relationships in the last game.eg if I'm playing ODA do I go east or west first? Who do I fight and who do I befriend etc. etc.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Ah crud, it's a rumor fest from this point on.

NB: We do not know whether or not you can use the new Japanese units in the original campaign. There has been no word on this, one way or the other. Soly-sama's beta version is far from a final release, it has no MP campaign or anything either. IMHO there is no reason not to include the new units in the old campaign. So don't get excited.

Nelson-san, "limiting the damage" is the lousiest possible workaround, and I don't think it applies anyway since the devs don't consider the new units ahistorical. Furthermore, I agree with Yoshitsune-san: it would only cripple the expansion partially, not to mention invoke a *lot* of angry feedback from customers who feel they've been misled...

Henryh-san, the AI will be completely reworked anyway, so adding a few behavioral patterns to the strategic AI core shouldn't be too much work (modifying the tactical AI to use BN correctly will be more work, but that'll be done anyway). Also, I think the devs made a wise decision in leaving any diplomacy out of the Mongol campaign, beacause (as you yourself pointed out) it's not the STW engine's strong suit. This is Total War, and all that.

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"Si j'étais né en 17 à Leidenstadt / Sur les ruines d'un champ de bataille / Aurais-je été meilleur ou pire que ces gens / Si j'avais été Allemand?"
- Jean-Jacques Goldman: Né en 17 à Leidenstadt

[henryh]

Diplomacy has its place, tell me how you all feel if you are playing the Takeda for example and you make the attack on Mushahi(in the first season), and you leave one spear guarding Kai, Without any pretence of diplomacy nobody would make those 'stretching out' attacks at the start when surrounded by a variety of enemies.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

It's not that I didn't like diplomacy: on the contrary, I'm with everyone else in thinking that with a decent array of diplomatic options in the Civilization style STW would be a(n even) better game. But if the devs aren't going to completely revamp the strategy game for the WE version (which they ain't gonna do - it's only an expansion, not a sequel), then it's better that the expansion focuses on those areas of the game that it's good at, not those it's weak at.

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"Si j'étais né en 17 à Leidenstadt / Sur les ruines d'un champ de bataille / Aurais-je été meilleur ou pire que ces gens / Si j'avais été Allemand?"
- Jean-Jacques Goldman: Né en 17 à Leidenstadt

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 03-28-2001).]

[henryh]

I agree with your comment it would be good if you could make better use of allied daimyos perhaps a dialogue option when your emissary visits:

for example(playing as uesigi): Honourable ally Takeda can you attack the Hojo Infidels at mushashi next year/season?

[Nelson]

Anssi, I respectfully disagree old chum.

As I said, IF it has to be all or nothing, I would sooner see NO new units in the Sengoku campaign. I and others would rather not see kensai and crossbowmen ANYWHERE! So when I hear that these units MAY be restricted, it's music to my ears and I cross my fingers hoping that the news is true!

I know that solypsist doesn't have the final version. I also know that some guys want ALL the units ALL THE TIME. I don't. In fact, I want some of the units NONE of the time. I believe THEY "cripple the expansion partially"! An option in this regard would be nice but one isn't coming. So meanwhile we all get to root for want we want, right?

As for being misled, well, the box says the game is historically faithful too. Some new units have already illicited some angry feedback on that account. Restricting the new units would help to make that statement more true than it otherwise would be. Just because CA says a unit is historically accurate doesn't make it so, not by a long shot. We've had this philosophical discussion before and ultimately we will get what we get. However, since the Mongol units won't appear in the Sengoku era (thank God) the precedent is set for omitting SOME new units at least.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Nelson-san, we *basically* agree on many things, this is just a matter of well... intensity. I think the gist of our disagreement is here: Quote As for being misled, well, the box says the game is historically faithful too. Some new units have already illicited some angry feedback on that account. Restricting the new units would help to make that statement more true than it otherwise would be.[/QUOTE]Yes, we've had the historical accuracy discussion before (multiple times), and IIRC we both agreed that the new units aren't "strictly historical" (if there's such a thing), but we disagreed on whether they are significantly more ahistorical than the ones in the original game. I still hold to my opinion on the matter, so I don't think (notice: this is just me) customer feedback on "historical inaccuracy" will be, or deserves to be, any more severe than what the original game received (which was almost nothing). The unit most likely to produce "it's AoE!" comments is the Thunder Bomber, which, ironically, is almost fully accurate.

But, whatever the case, I think restricting the new units in the Mongol campaign would be the programming equivalent of sweeping the dust under the rug. Removing them from one part of the game, so that that part would still be "pure", would be a rather miserable compromise which nobody would really be happy with.

The "realism people" want the new units out (with the significant exceptions of the NC and of course the Mongols) and the "AoK people" want to have them all. (PC note: the labelings of those two groups are gross generalizations.) To restrict them only to the Mongol campaign would disappoint the "realismers" because they would still be there, ruining the Mongol campaign for them, (and, as Yoshitsune-san pointed out, having BNinjas and Kensai in the 13th century would be much more ahistorical than having them in the 16th century) and the "AoKers" would be disappointed 'cause they can't try out the new units in the old, trusty (and probably still the best) campaign.

So, it's a workaround, but it's the least elegant way to handle it I can think of. Furthermore, setting personal opinion wholly aside for now, this would be highly inconsistent with the established CA policy.

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"Si j'étais né en 17 à Leidenstadt / Sur les ruines d'un champ de bataille / Aurais-je été meilleur ou pire que ces gens / Si j'avais été Allemand?"
- Jean-Jacques Goldman: Né en 17 à Leidenstadt

[Puzz3D]

Here's a speculation based on the fact that the Mongol Expansion is supposed to have 8 new units, but we actually got 10. I'm thinking that the Kensai and Battlefield Ninja have been added to the original game, and, therefore, are not 'new' to the Mongol Expansion. Then you could say the expansion has 8 new units even though the Kensai and BN, which we've never seen before, are included.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[The Daimyo]

Actually, Puzz, We were originally told there would only be 6 new units. I think this was because they were unsure about whether or not the other 4 units would be play-balance-able so they didn't want to say anything yet.
I did notice though that half way thorugh the Official Tour rollout, the order of introduction was skewed as to lead me to the realization that there were going to be at least 8 new units, even before they were shown or announced. Notice that the last few units introduced were of course the cavalry units and other necessary ground troops that could only serve to balance out the Mongol side.

NOW, on to the idea of them not including any of the new Japanese units in the old campaign. I think that's a dumb idea. Logically, the Crossbowman is the only bad call there. They stopped using the crossbow shortly after the "Mongol Invasions" because the actual crossbows they had were monsterous and required great strength and skill to carry and use. It required 2 operators, unlike the European counterpart that became popular shortly after the Dark Ages.
Technically there's no good reason NOT to include them in the Original campaigns. No need to get crazy and rework the whole combat system or any of the AI routines beyond what they have already done. It's like putting bullets in a gun, just push 'em in and fire and it works.
The units are objects that interact and have their own set limitations and affects, these will be added in painlessly and will take the game to a new level.
I was one of the people who requested the Ninjas, and some other stuff that they obviously took and ran with back in September, and now it's going to be a reality. The ninja unit will add some magic and some excitement into the game, and I'm pretty sure those that claim to not agree with it will like it all the same when they get to use it on their enemies.
The idea of discluding the new units entirely is retarded. I don't mean that crassly, I mean it as it's defined.
If it's such a BIG deal to the naysayers, then perhaps a simple menu option could be added, that would cover you for all parts of the game. A simple toggle that allows you to disallow the new units that you don't agree with. Tada! Rather easy to program too!

If I have my way with "the wish list" that I posted in the other forum here, then that won't be a problem.




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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[EasyCo]

I hope so Daimyo...That would be nice.

Quote A simple toggle that allows you to disallow the new units that you don't agree with[/QUOTE]

[Yoshitsune]

quote:
"They stopped using the crossbow shortly after the Mongol Invasion because the actual crossbows they had were monstrous and required great strength and skill to carry and use."

If you've got sources that mention the use of Japanese crossbows until the Mongol Invasions could you please tell us what they are? I'm genuinely interested The sources I've come across include 'Hired Swords' by Karl Friday and Turnbull's article on Samurai Sieges in 'Military Illustrated' mag. They talk of the large crossbow artillery known as 'oyumi' - like a ballista - used during the 6th-11th Centuries. Even towards the end of this period its use began to greatly decline and one of the last mentions of the weapon is during the 'Former Nine Years War' of 1051-62.

Fully agree with your idea of the 'toggle' for units in the game but the designers appeared to rule this out in Erado's Q&A. So the anachronistic or downright fantasy units will probably be hardwired in.

The debate over these units, and the whole issue of *reasonable* historical accuracy in general, seems to be one where both sides appear to be speaking some strange alien language to eachother At least the 'toggle' idea would the best of both worlds to a degree. Personally I'd like the ability to 'mod' more than that though.

Lack of knowledge in the West of real Japanese history and a fascination with pop-culture myth has allowed the designers much leeway in STW that they wouldn't get away with in, say, an Ancient Rome game. I would no more want to play a "13th Century" Mongol Invasion game with battlefield ninja-in-black hiding in the fields than I would a Napoleonic game that had Gatling machine-guns. That's not even mentioning the fact that the core samurai troops remain 16th Century types which were quite different to the 13thC samurai in terms of tactics/weapons/armour etc. They seem to have put a great deal of effort into getting the Mongol forces pretty much correct so why not the Japanese?? As you can see, I'm one who finds the immersive appeal of playable accuracy 'fun' and I also have a real interest in the early samurai period.

If people just want showy magic effects why don't they demand the designers go all out and make 'Oriental Dark Omen' with Shugenja magicians, dragons, Bakemono goblins, Oni demons and Kami spirits etc?

[The Daimyo]

Yoshitsune, I got my info from the same places you got yours, and then some. Don't take everything you read in those books verbatim, history is slightly skewed, and time is a circular constant.
For the sake of being realistic, and terribly accurate with stuff, I wouldn't put all my money on a few modern day authors. If something like the crossbow existed earlier than the 13th century, you can be assured that they improved upon it and it had some use for the duration.
The machine gun stole the lime-light from the hand-grenade, but I don't see anyone arguing that anywhere.
I don't remember seeing anyone talking about Shukenja, Wu-Jen, Oni, or Kappa's here, that's reserved for my upcoming site based on a game that does deal with that though, Throne Of Darkness. Plenty of goodies in store for those with that taste there. (shameless plug utilized: game fan site> get.info)
I find no fault in the use of the given units, historically correct to the day, or not. I think it will make for an enjoyable gaming experience. Not putting in the options that we've requested is not a good thing though. Obviously it's a problem for a few, so perhaps it has been looked into and we just don't know about it.
Guess we'll see...hmm...

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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com