skeletons and unit balance

[xerex]

I found this quote from JeromeGradskye on the subject, but which of the two scenrios I posted above is the correct one is unclear from this post. Perhaps he could clarify his remarks :)

There are some fairly subtle game balancing facts involved with the animations, which i should probably mention. For example there is only one attack per animation, so the length of the attack animation determines attack frequency for that troop type. The attack delay values in export_descr_unit.txt are used to balance this, so that it doesn't become too restrictive for artists.

[Dol Guldur]

That's the quotation I was thinking of - I do not think Jerome has posted for a long while though (?)

Not just artists either, eh? ;)

[Monkwarrior]

@xerex
I think you are right.

In my opinion the delay was included as an option to "umbalance" more the stats. I mean, there is no reason because a heavy swordsman and a light one have the same stats, in the same way they have not the same animation (speed). The delay allows to slow down even more the animation for heavy soldiers, reflecting the difficulties to move a heavier equipment.

This is a way to "balance" the artists' work, just in the other way you thought. If the correct framerate for slow animation should be 30 and they put 28, we have the option to make it longer thanks to the delay.

[xerex]

but what isn't clear to me is if the min_delay is the time between the beginings of attack animations or the time between the end of one animation and the beginning of the next.

The latter of these two is useless for balance because every animation has a different number of frames and tacking on an extra 2.5 seconds to that doesn't change the fact that the unit will attack at a differet rate depending on which animation it chose to execute.

The former of these is totally useful if it works as prescribed. In this case, we can set the min_delay larger than any unit's attack animation, and all the units will attack at the same rate.

However, setting min_delay to 50 for two identical units and giving one fs_handed skeleton and the other fs_slow_swordsman still results in a victory for the fs_2handed for reasons passing understanding.

So, I must conclude that min_delay is either broken, or works in the useless manner described above.

Then, noting that setting min_delay exceptionally high slows down combat dramatically, I must conclude that it is working, and thus, must be working in the useless manner described above...which pisses me off

I guess I am hoping someone will come here and teach me how to make the above mock battle (between two identical units save for their skeletons) a tie for all skeletons so I don't have to go through and figure out the combat benefits of every single animation.

[Monkwarrior]

Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I imagine that the sequence is:

[animation time (fix)]-[delay (variable in EDU)]-[animation time]-[delay]-etc

Time lapse between two identical points in two consecutive animations: animation time + delay (= time elapsed between two hits)

Balance:
Slow animation = long animation time; needs short delay
Quick animation = short animation time; needs long delay

The problem is the fine tunning, due to the different units of both times (frames per second and tenths of second).

[xerex]

Thx for the confirmation. I appreciate the help.

as for the fine tuning, the different units is not so much a problem..the game plays at 20 fps and all animations are even numbers of frames, so a 20 frame animation takes 1 second to play in game. So, for a given animation, it is easy to determine the appropriate delay.

My problem is that fs_swordsman for example, has 6 different attack animations that all have a different number of frames associated with them. So the speed with which the unit attacks is variable depending on which animations the unit uses and how the game selects which one to use..

e.g. say fs_swordsman has the following animation times in frames for the attack animations. 20,22,24,26,28, and 30.

If it randomly selects an attack animation for each attack, then we can say the average animation time for an attack is 25 frames and asjust the delay accordingly. However, we have no idea if it actually *is* random. Center attacks may be more common than high or low ones.

Futhermore, what if the enemy the soldier is fighting is only 3.5 feet tall and has hairy feet? Does he still choose randomly from the same 6 animations? or are some animations not used because they are "high" attacks?

So then if 28 and 30 are the high attack animations that get eliminated when fightin the wee folk, the average animation time suddenly dropped from 25 to 23 making the unit attack faster when fighting smaller opponents. The same question is raised regarding larger than normal enemies.

[Monkwarrior]

My problem is that fs_swordsman for example, has 6 different attack animations that all have a different number of frames associated with them. So the speed with which the unit attacks is variable depending on which animations the unit uses and how the game selects which one to use..

e.g. say fs_swordsman has the following animation times in frames for the attack animations. 20,22,24,26,28, and 30.

If it randomly selects an attack animation for each attack, then we can say the average animation time for an attack is 25 frames and asjust the delay accordingly. However, we have no idea if it actually *is* random. Center attacks may be more common than high or low ones.

Yes, that's true. And it is difficult for us to get a deeper insight without knowledge about the mechanism used by the engine to select the animation in each moment.