Calvary, ect, ect

[Melock]

I've always been a big fan of Medieval 1 and Rome: Total War. (Along with Shogun)


One thing that is sooooooo much different and really messing me up is calvary. I charge and my calvary are sliced to ribbons. They charge and I lose 60 men.


I just cant figure it out, only way I can kill Calvary atm is to sacrifice a unit and concentrate bowmen on them. (which doesnt help my unit fighting them, lol)

Around turn 110 with England, fighting 3 fronts with HRE/France/Denmark



Just started a port campagne because they have a unit that can do SpearWall, and I pray it'll make life easier.

M/M difficulty.

[Agent Smith]

I've always been a big fan of Medieval 1 and Rome: Total War. (Along with Shogun)


One thing that is sooooooo much different and really messing me up is calvary. I charge and my calvary are sliced to ribbons. They charge and I lose 60 men.


I just cant figure it out, only way I can kill Calvary atm is to sacrifice a unit and concentrate bowmen on them. (which doesnt help my unit fighting them, lol)

Around turn 110 with England, fighting 3 fronts with HRE/France/Denmark



Just started a port campagne because they have a unit that can do SpearWall, and I pray it'll make life easier.

M/M difficulty.

Cavalry have two forms of charges in M2TW. If you double click on the enemy, they will run to the opponent and, usually, attack with their secondary weapon or have a more limited primary charge.

If you single click on the enemy and let the cavalry go, they will automatically charge when in range. This is a formed charge, lances down, and the effect is, well, devastating

Hope that helps.

[Melock]

lol, I love double clicking... I'll have to try that single click. Same thing with infantry or not?

[Von Nanega]

lol, I love double clicking... I'll have to try that single click. Same thing with infantry or not?

Yes. Infantry walk up, then charge when in the radius.

[hrvojej]

Single click is not necessary. Walking just helps to maintain the unit cohesion and facing during approach. You can achieve the same results (devastating formed charge) with double clicking, it's just harder to do so if the enemy is on the move and/or the terrain is rugged.

[Agent Smith]

Single click is not necessary. Walking just helps to maintain the unit cohesion and facing during approach. You can achieve the same results (devastating formed charge) with double clicking, it's just harder to do so if the enemy is on the move and/or the terrain is rugged.

If I'm not mistaken, I think CA has come out and said that the mechanics are different for double and single click, with single clicking being more devastating.

I've double clicked into stationary units before and I don't get nearly the same effect at all as I do with a single click formed charge, but maybe that's just me.

[knoddy]

It should also be pointed out that CA toned cavalry down a bit and made it harder to get those massed charges, terrain unit cohesian, moving targets all have an impact. basically they were trying to avoid the RTW style battles with the massed cav charge wiping everything in its path away. Cav are still powerful when used well and properly they just are harder to use and take some more getting used too.

And yes CA did say they changed the charge mechanic,any unit if single clicked upon and enemy will walk to within a certain range then begin to charge.


Cheers Knoddy

[hrvojej]

Check the charge threads referenced in the FAQ. Different people have different experience with charge, and double click works perfectly for me if the conditions are right. Single click basically means the unit will be less likely to lose cohesion due to various other factors, and therefore more likely to do a formed charge.

[Whacker]

Check the charge threads referenced in the FAQ. Different people have different experience with charge, and double click works perfectly for me if the conditions are right. Single click basically means the unit will be less likely to lose cohesion due to various other factors, and therefore more likely to do a formed charge.

Smith is correct, CA has stated on the blog what the new charge mechanics are. Double clicking will result in the charge stopping when 10% of something occurs, I forget if it is impact or casualties. Single clicking does not have this limitation. It's not to say that one can't double click and still get an effective charge, it will just not be AS effective as a single click.

It should also be pointed out that CA toned cavalry down a bit and made it harder to get those massed charges, terrain unit cohesian, moving targets all have an impact. basically they were trying to avoid the RTW style battles with the massed cav charge wiping everything in its path away. Cav are still powerful when used well and properly they just are harder to use and take some more getting used too.

IIRC these changes were largely in part due to the multiplayer community's complaints about cav spamming. I don't necessarily mind the new charge mechanics, but the unit cohesion from RTW to M2TW to a steep turn for the worse. Keeping my army in formation when moving normal or doubletime is just about impossible, and it's not due to lack of skill either on my part. Still why I (and many others) say that the MP and SP mechanics and stats should be separated, so the MP folks can get the balanced game they want, and the SP types can still have our powerful heavy cav charges like they should be.

[Agent Smith]

Smith is correct, CA has stated on the blog what the new charge mechanics are. Double clicking will result in the charge stopping when 10% of something occurs, I forget if it is impact or casualties. Single clicking does not have this limitation. It's not to say that one can't double click and still get an effective charge, it will just not be AS effective as a single click.

This is the exact quote I think you're looking for from CA:

Regarding the new charge mechanic, there are two charges available to a cavalry unit: a formed charge which allows for most of the unit to charge into a target; and an unformed charge which stops the charge after 10% of the soldiers within that unit have made contact with the target. In RTW this wasn’t as much of an issue because cavalry did not have long lances and as such did not require two significantly different charge abilities. The M2TW charge system allows you to have a very powerful charge if you do everything right and a light charge if you don’t.

The triggers for a formed (powerful) charge include:

Line up the cavalry parallel to the target
Utilize a long straight run up toward the target
Prioritize stationary targets as moving targets may result in a last second turn and reform

The triggers for an unformed (weak) charge include:

The unit is spread out just before charging
The charge is issued while too close to the target
The charge is issued when the unit isn’t facing the target
The player changes direction just before the charge• The target moves and turns just before being hit

I think it is apparent, too, if you highlight your cav while it's moving. Single clicking will make it switch from "Marching" to "Charging" once it gets in range and there is a distinct lance lowering animation before the charge occurs. IIRC, a double clicked running charge always says "Marching."

That being said, I have seen bodies fly in the air double click charging before, but I've never had it with the effect of single clicking. Just test 1 heavy cav vs. 1 peasant with the peasant defending in both circumstances.

[Lupiscanis]

Smith is correct, CA has stated on the blog what the new charge mechanics are. Double clicking will result in the charge stopping when 10% of something occurs, I forget if it is impact or casualties. Single clicking does not have this limitation. It's not to say that one can't double click and still get an effective charge, it will just not be AS effective as a single click.

Not entirely true. You CAN have a double click charge that is as effective if not more so than a single click charge, but its rare. It does happen though, in my experience more often with trained troops who will hold cohesion together while cantering.

[Slug For A Butt]

Do better trained troops keep better cohesion? I was under the impression it was just a game mechanic, not something that some cavalry were better at than others.
Personally I prefer the way charges work now. Get it right and no infantry will stand in your way, but get it wrong and you'll be chopped down... that's the gamble. And single click seems much more reliable for a formed charge in my opinion.

[pike master]

the best method is to have a good distance from cav to target. single click and allow the cav unit to square off its facing towards target. then hit the run button. as long as you have them beyond a certian minimum distance they will close on target and launch a devestating overpowered charge.

sometimes quick angling charges at close quarters work but it takes some fiddling to know when they will work. its very difficult to explain.

[Agent Smith]

I think it is apparent, too, if you highlight your cav while it's moving. Single clicking will make it switch from "Marching" to "Charging" once it gets in range and there is a distinct lance lowering animation before the charge occurs. IIRC, a double clicked running charge always says "Marching."

I was wrong about that one. Sorry.

I guess it is just a question of what is more reliable. Out of all my play experience, single clicking has always been mroe devastating for me.

[anders]

you have to "aim and time" a double click charge, but then it can be just as good as a single click. if the terrain is unobstructed a single klick charge is more likely to succeed, more "fire and forget" really.

but, holy smoke how devastating those charges can be in 1.0 , ran 17 bodyguards into 60 armoured swordsmen last night in a campaign, instant rout, 3 dead horsemen and only eight surviving swordsmen, a bit ott?

[Daveybaby]

One other thing just to be sure... you have installed the 1.1 update, havent you? That makes cav charges easier.

[hrvojej]

This is the exact quote I think you're looking for from CA

Note that it doesn't say that you need to single click to get it done. With a single click it just more probable that everything will work out right. I've pulled off great charges with double clicking, it's just difficult to do in many circumstances. Decreasing the range at which the units starts to charge helps though.

[Lupiscanis]

Do better trained troops keep better cohesion? I was under the impression it was just a game mechanic, not something that some cavalry were better at than others.
Personally I prefer the way charges work now. Get it right and no infantry will stand in your way, but get it wrong and you'll be chopped down... that's the gamble. And single click seems much more reliable for a formed charge in my opinion.

Maybe its my imagination about the better trained units charging better =)

And yes, I agree - single click charges with no obstructions are 99% more reliable in nearly all circumstances.

[_Tristan_]

Having played a long 1.1 French campaign (Hmmmm.....Cavalryyyy...), I've succeeded in making a whole lot of double-click charges, decimating whole units....

Placement at the start is also very important, I always try to gain the upper ground before the charge to gain more impetus and then it's goodbye infantry

My main problem with the single-click charge is that the target will almost always move or the cav unit suffer from enemy missile fire before reaching the targeted unit...whereas the double-click charge lets you reach the target earlier...

[spark82]

IMO, it's all about luck . If a single stone comes up in your way (why do stones walk around battlefields anyway... ) you're screwed. I tried a lot of times to make these consistent charges, but something always went wrong. And one time, when I tried to help one of my kings to achieve glorious death on the field of battle (he was quite loaded with bad traits) I sent him and his men (25 or so) against a larger rebel stack with 3 crossbows, 3 armored spears and a mailed knight squad. The rebels deployed the spears in front, crossbows middle and the knights behind. I decided to charge in at the knights, with a double click. As my troops ran towards them, the enemy crossbows and the knights started to move. When I reached the front line, the crossbows were right behind the bracing spearmen, with the knights marching right behind them. I waited my knights to be massacred on the spears, and what happens? They blew the horn and cut through them like hot knife in butter... The initial charge completely destroyed the middle spear stack, half of the other two, routed the crossbows and killed the enemy captain along with 80% of his mailed knights, bodies flying everywhere... with about 5 own loss The remaining spears put up a fight, but not for long, and I gained a heroic victory... I wonder what would happen if I use the so-called more efficient one-click charge... Everything killed in a 200m radius circle, earthworms included? Or maybe the crossbows would've killed half of my bodyguard before they reach the charging position...
So, I don' think the one-click charge should be only used if the enemy is close enough and doesn't have any ranged troops. If it has, it's better to run in, and massacre them... And after this victory I started to use this tactic. I attack the squad behind. And the charge affects the other squad in front, too. This way, the 10% only comes in the picture when the behind stack is reached - as I observed.

Sorry for the long post.

[gardibolt]

The single click charge is pretty worthless; the target has usually moved somewhere else by the time these silly k-nigh-ets have sauntered into range, causing the k-nigh-ets to become all flustered and soil themselves in frustration.

[Caliburn]

The charges work quite well now I think, except that you need a lot of luck to pull off a good charge even if your troops are perfectly aligned... At least it seems so now. I don't really like the fact that charging-pulling back-charging routine requires 4-5 steps to work, though, as I prefer to focus on the tactical aspect instead of whack-a-molesque unit juggling skills. One step forward with the command system, and two steps back, I'd say.

How about charging units in loose formation and running away from your charge? Are they still as silly in 1.2 as even in 1.1? I for one hate the idea of losing half my mailed knights to a unit of peasant archers, who turn their tail and run away in a loose formation until my "charge" hits, after which they just take their fruit knives and cut the poor hoarsemen to ribbons... Just asking, there are enough critical threads on this subject so I won't complain any more...

[econ21]

How about charging units in loose formation and running away from your charge? Are they still as silly in 1.2 as even in 1.1? I for one hate the idea of losing half my mailed knights to a unit of peasant archers, who turn their tail and run away in a loose formation until my "charge" hits, after which they just take their fruit knives and cut the poor hoarsemen to ribbons...

That was a real pain in RTW (especially the realism mods where cavalry was more vulnerable). I think it is better in 1.2, not least because correcting the shield bug makes most knights significantly more robust. They can take on archers etc without much loss, even without the benefit of a good charge. Good charges were supposed to be easier in 1.2 in such situations, but I am not sure the problem is fully solved - cavalry can still switch from "charging" to "pursuing" and lose their charge impact.

[John_Longarrow]

With Moorish Jav Cav, I've noticed that when I do need to charge I'm best off if I double click (or select a set up location and run to it) and then single click while my cav is still running. I've seen 40 of my base jav throwers charge a full unit of mailed knights and win with only about 10 losses doing this. This is with no experience for my cav.

The entire charge system seems to have some oddities to it. I wish there was a "Run here, form up and charge" command, as has been posted. It would be much more historic (from the commanders perspective) as most cav troops practice that manuver.

[Caliburn]

Yeah, I've had the same with the Polish Nobles, who never seized to surprise me with their effectiveness. They've managed some pretty strong charges from very awkward positions, wiping out full units.

Cavalry charging cavalry doesn't seem to have much impact, though, which is a bit strange. But then again, it gives the AI (and players in pvp) a chance to counter enemy cavalry who would otherwise just flank and wipe out the enemy army completely without any problems (maybe sacrificing one knight unit to overpower the enemy cavalry in local slugoffs etc.).

Anyway, the cavalry facing each other seems to be forced to melee (except for bow and javelin cavalry), and that can take a while if one or both sides don't have mace cavalry, enough for a decisive maneuvre by infantry, melee or gunpowder.

I really enjoyed sending the Venetian "light" mace cavalry, whatever its name was, against enemy knights and the like. I think they're something like 50/50 against most knights, and enemy AP doesn't really matter too much, as they're quite light anyway.

[hrvojej]

The charge of cavalry against another cavalry unit head-on has no effect, as far as I can tell (in 1 on 1 battles at least). Nobody dies until the secondary weapons are drawn.

I think that the lances are too short so when the mounts come head to head the lances don't reach the rider(s) - and nothing happens. Since they also have the same mass, they cannot push into each other's formation either. I am not sure whether this is intentional, but it sure doesn't look like the tales of medieval jousting matches.

[DesertEagle]

The entire charge system seems to have some oddities to it. I wish there was a "Run here, form up and charge" command, as has been posted. It would be much more historic (from the commanders perspective) as most cav troops practice that manuver.

Youcan "sort of" execute this type of manuever by command queing a "run to position command" and then shift-single-clicking an enemy unit. This gives the run order to the first waypoint and the second is a single-click charge. The only downside is you may not be fully cohesive resulting in an unformed charge. Using several walk waypoints to close the last 50 yards or so before charge distance helps some.

This is how I do cav charges under missile fire to minimize losses on the approach.

[Shahed]

Regardless, I can wipe out a unit of Armored Sargeants, using a unit of Hospitaller (Sipahi, Mamluks etc) by double clicking. I mean more than 60 casualties on impact.

As anyone who is used to playing all cavalry armies in M2:TW will tell you, you don't usually have time to single click with all cav armies.

You want to use your shock technique to the maximum.

Naturally you have to be faster and more clicks are required to line up correctly. Often I do it to the degree that I wheel the general's bodyguard 1 or 2 seconds before I order the charge in order to make sure that the general lands right into the enemy unit. This is because I want the general to consistently get more kills than the rest of his men. A principle I've used since Shogun: Total War i.e the general leads by example !

Other occassions, I wheel the cavalry to impact at the location that I want it to.

As a general rule I always try to impact into thier left, diagonal. This is an attempt to kill the enemy unit's leader, enemy general, on impact.

Against spear units I always try to impact from their left diagonal because their spears are on their right.

It works for me just as good as a single click.

[econ21]

The charge of cavalry against another cavalry unit head-on has no effect, as far as I can tell (in 1 on 1 battles at least). Nobody dies until the secondary weapons are drawn.

I think that the lances are too short so when the mounts come head to head the lances don't reach the rider(s) - and nothing happens. Since they also have the same mass, they cannot push into each other's formation either. I am not sure whether this is intentional, but it sure doesn't look like the tales of medieval jousting matches.

I was thinking of reporting this as a bug - has it been reported already? I stopped short though when I realised I was not sure if I had just been observing general's units. Their 2HPs might stop kills on impact.

[hrvojej]

I was thinking of reporting this as a bug - has it been reported already? I stopped short though when I realised I was not sure if I had just been observing general's units. Their 2HPs might stop kills on impact.

I remember mentioning this previously in one of the threads, but I don't know if it has been reported as a bug. I tested it quite a few times with 1HP cavalry, and in my experience it always happens like this.