Estonia's Decision to Remove Soviet WWII Monument Sparks Protest

[Ice]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...eut/index.html

TALLINN, Estonia (Reuters) -- Estonia spirited away the controversial statue of a Red Army Soviet soldier from the Centrex of the capital in the early hours on Friday after violent riots against its removal in which one man was killed.

Russia reacted furiously to the move and its upper house of parliament voted to ask President Vladimir Putin to sever relations with the small Baltic state.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow would "take serious steps" against Estonia, Russian news agencies reported.

The statue was taken away in the early hours after the worst violence seen in years in Estonia, including vandalism and looting by mainly Russian-speaking protesters.

"The aim of the government decision was to avoid further possible actions against the public order," Estonia's government said in a statement.

Russia, which has had troubled ties with Estonia since it won independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, has protested against the plan to move the World War Two monument as an insult to those who fought fascism. It has also angered local Russian-speakers, a large minority of around 300,000 in the country of 1.3 million.

Estonians tend to view it as a reminder of 50 years of Soviet occupation.

"Yet again, we can qualify the actions of official Tallinn as sacrilegious and inhuman ...," Interfax news agency quoted Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin as saying. "We are working to formulate a concrete reaction towards what has happened," he added.

He said the move was harsh ahead of the May 9 anniversary of the end of World War Two, a popular public holiday in Russia.

By mid-morning the area around the statue was calm and traffic was flowing freely. Estonia said the statue was now somewhere under police control. People continued to clean up the streets and windows in many residential and office buildings nearby were smashed.
Russian anger

The vote by Russia's upper house of parliament on severing diplomatic ties with Estonia reflected Moscow's anger.

"We've seen enough of this mocking the dead and scoffing at the victory in World War Two," Russian news agencies quoted Federation Council Speaker Sergei Mironov as telling the chamber.

The senators then backed the non-binding decision. Mikhail Margelov, head of the foreign relations committee at the Federation Council, said the events in Tallinn showed that "the war against fascism did not end on May 9, 1945."

"This fight goes on and it will continue as long as there are grave-diggers who are ready to throw out from the graves those who defeated fascism," he told Russian television.

The violence came amid strong feelings about the 2-meter (6 1/2 ft) high bronze statue of a World War Two Red Army soldier, set in a large stone wall in a park, which was erected in 1947.

The government said one man died in the disturbances, which began after more than 1,000 people gathered to protest on Thursday, after being stabbed in the subsequent violence.

The government said 44 of the protesters and 13 police were injured and 300 people were arrested. Looters smashed windows, fires were started and cars overturned.

Estonia has said the monument is a public order problem as it attracts Estonian and Russian nationalists. It has also said it is more respectful to the dead to be buried in a cemetery.

The authorities had fenced off the area around the monument and the statue itself and erected a long white tent as they prepared to dig for the remains of any soldiers.

I have mixed feelings about this. Part of sees this as a bad idea because you it really isn't a good idea to piss off the Russians if you are Estonia. Part of me also says it is good because it shows that Estonia has enough guts to do so.

[InsaneApache]

I say let them piss off the ruskis. 50 years of Soviet occupation is a long time. Anyway, now that they are in NATO, you guys can always ride to the rescue, ala 7th cavalry, if Putin gets his sabre out.

It's their country, they can do what they want. It's got bugger all to do with Moscow.

Just my tuppenth worth.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Does Estonia even need Russia? I was under the impression that they were one of the "Baltic Tigers" whose economy was growing rapidly.

[rory_20_uk]

Gas supplies? I imagine they need them as well as the rest of Europe. And since when have (European) NATO had the guts to do anything apart from argue?

It has only been moved elsewhere, not scrapped, so no biggie.

[Fragony]

Monument should stay, screw post-war resistance heroes. It's for dead soldiers not for politicians.

[Adrian II]

Monument should stay, screw post-war resistance heroes. It's for dead soldiers not for politicians.

Spoken like a man.

Oh , it's Fragony..

Well okay, I suppose once a year you and I can agree on something. But no more, otherwise I will have to activate my Bolchevik cell in Amersfoort and have them cut your welfare.

[Vladimir]

And since when have (European) NATO had the guts to do anything apart from argue?

Afghanistan.

[Odin]

Does Estonia even need Russia?

Yes, if they wish to recieve thier natural gas.

"Gazprom is also increasingly becoming an owner of natural gas utilities in the Baltic region. Gazprom holds a 25% stake in Latvia's Latvian Gaze and a 37% stake in Estonia's Eesti Gaas (along with other major foreign shareholders, Germany's Ruhrgas and Finland's Fortum). Most recently, in January 2004, Gazprom finalized its acquisition of a 34% stake in Lithuania's natural gas company, Lietuvos Dujos. With the three Baltic states scheduled to join the European Union in May 2004, Gazprom's growing influence in the Baltics could serve as a staging ground for greater exports to the countries of the European Union." Source

the baltics are major distribution points for energy from Russia, both via the sea and pipeline.

Other then national intrests (of Estonia) I dont see how this helps them diplomatically.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monument should stay, screw post-war resistance heroes. It's for dead soldiers not for politicians.

One mans hero is another mans army of occupation. Screw the Russians. All this over a stinking statue? Imagine if they had burned Russian flags.

[Kralizec]

One mans hero is another mans army of occupation. Screw the Russians. All this over a stinking statue? Imagine if they had burned Russian flags.

Living in the USSR wasn't nice, but do you think a prolonged German occupation would have been any better? I agree with Frag on this one.

If the monument is seen as a sanctuary for certain extremists they should crack down on those instead of trying to remove the symptons.

[Azi Tohak]

Anything that pisses off Vlad and Russia makes me happy. But good for Estonia. I wonder if they can get their friends to remove similar monuments to oppression in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia etc.

Azi

[Tribesman]

Anything that pisses off Vlad and Russia makes me happy. But good for Estonia. I wonder if they can get their friends to remove similar monuments to oppression in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia etc.

Would you be equally as happy if a country decided to remove memorials to your countries armed forces ?

[cegorach]

Anything that pisses off Vlad and Russia makes me happy. But good for Estonia. I wonder if they can get their friends to remove similar monuments to oppression in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia etc.

Azi

In Poland it is up to local authorities. It was in general done in the early 1990s along with all those Lenin, Stalin and other statues (especially the 'bloody' Feliks which was utterly destroyed - the monument of the founder of ChK - the ancestor of the NKVD and the KGB).


Of course it we are talking about monuments of oppression, not graves which are kept in superb condition.


@Tribesman

You obviously do not know the difference.

Imagine celebration of the day your country was invaded and occupied kept every year in the very center of your capital and other places and that is your duty to be happy about it despite it is all a huge lie.

Add to this apartheit law, oppression and other entertainments provided by the totalitarian state.

In this case keeping the monument in the center of the city is rather masochistic, though only in most recent years ( from 2005) when the Russian extremists started their 'celebrations' there it REALLY became a very serous problem. Especially considering the nature of such extremism.

[Tribesman]

@Tribesman

You obviously do not know the difference

Really ? In the case in hand it was a monument to Soviet army soldiers was it not . Soviet soldiers who defeated just about the vilest regime you could think of . When I wrote that in response to Azi s post I had the US and Japanese monuments in the Phillipines in mind

Imagine celebration of the day your country was invaded and occupied kept every year in the very center of your capital and other places and that is your duty to be happy about it despite it is all a huge lie.

Well there is the problem Cegroach , no need to imagine .
I see both the celebrants and the protestors as small minded fools .
Don't you ? If not why not?
And are you on about with duty? That seems to go beyond the bollox that is patriotism into the realm of false patriotism .
Explain yourself

[Kagemusha]

Really ? In the case in hand it was a monument to Soviet army soldiers was it not . Soviet soldiers who defeated just about the vilest regime you could think of . When I wrote that in response to Azi s post I had the US and Japanese monuments in the Phillipines in mind

Well there is the problem Cegroach , no need to imagine .
I see both the celebrants and the protestors as small minded fools .
Don't you ? If not why not?
And are you on about with duty? That seems to go beyond the bollox that is patriotism into the realm of false patriotism .
Explain yourself

Tribesy.Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Do you actually know something about what happened in Estonia between 1939-1944? Did it ever occurred to you that the Estonians didnt want to be forcefully joined to Soviet Union first,neither to be occupied by Germans during Barbarossa, nor liberated by Soviet Russia in 1944. Maybe little country of Estonia never wanted to be apart any of that that happened between the two totalitarian regimees of Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Maybe they just wanted to be independent and mind their own matters,unfortunately they didnt posses resources enough to protect their independancy,just like many other countries in Eastern Europe. Estonia is not doing anything wrong by moving the monument to an cemetary,like it is customed to have such monuments in their culture. How hard is for you to understand that Estonians had little joy of the Soviet liberation, meaning third wawe of executions and deportations after 1939 just like they enjoyed very little about the Nazi occupation or the Soviet occupation before that.

[Don Corleone]

I think Tribesman's point, correct me if I'm wrong (what am I saying, I should remember who it is I'm referring to...), is that the statue itself is a hero to the war dead that helped stopped one of the worst regimes of all time. Yes, they went on to occupy Estonia and make the Estonians lives miserable, but that's not the point of the statue itself. If it was a "Screw you, we used to own you, and in some way, we always will" monument, I could understand Estonia's position. And it's clear that's how they're choosing to view it. But at the end of the day, a lot of Russian (and other nationalities) died in Eastern Europe to push back a murderous regime. We can't just forget their contribution because the Soviets went on to commit some atrocities of their own. They're two separate considerations.

Personally, I'm quite glad that the French have never told us to dismantle Normandy cemetery (though I think Degaulle toyed with the idea when things started getting really ugly in the 60's). Despite what they may think about our nation and our current leaders, they understood that the men in that cemetery did a noble thing and that should stand on it's own. I salute the French for their maturity,and I think it would have been best if the Estonians could have shown some of that as well. I understand their position, but I think they're looking to take offense in this case.Strangely enough , I have to agree with Tribesman on this one.

[cegorach]

Well there is the problem Cegroach , no need to imagine .
I see both the celebrants and the protestors as small minded fools .
Don't you ? If not why not?
And are you on about with duty? That seems to go beyond the bollox that is patriotism into the realm of false patriotism .
Explain yourself

It was the DUTY , of any Estonian to celebrate the 'liberation', to be happy of the first 'liberation' in 1940 too.

This is a problem. IN allformer soviet satelite states it was all the same - the Red Army not only defeated Hitler, but should be worshipped as demi-gods fighting for peace all the time - anything which was NOT supporting that statement was banned from any discussion, censured and people who spoke about it were imprisoned or killed.

This is what I mean when I say it was their duty to be happy of the 'liberation'.



IRONICALLY recently some Russian spokesmen tried to threaten Estonia with economical sanctions - mainly stopping oil export to Estonia.
The problem which accured shortly after that statement was that Estonia doesn't really use Russian oil having its own resources and the oil which comes to this country from Russia is only TRASPORTED elsewhere...
So the ban would hit only Russia.
No wonder they dropped these idea the next day after announcing it.



Recently I analised which european neighbour of Russia doesn't have any problems with this country and I found that ALL HAVE.
Also all the affairs were started by Russia - is that just clumsy or there is a purpose to create a string of enemies so the society is kept 'united' all the time ? I think it is the second thing.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, the Soviets can hardly be considered liberators by the Estonians. In the early ww2, they occupied the country after threatening with invasion if Estonia didn't give the Soviets naval bases in Estonia. When Estonia accepted, Soviet occupation begun. Although many Soviets died in fighting the Germans, the Soviet return to Estonia was not to liberate the country, but to resume the Soviet occupation of it.

I hope the Russian provoking statements are just talk, but who knows? With the infringed and now practically gone democracy in Russia, it could turn more dangerous again a few decades ahead, unless more parties can enter competition, and the basic food supply/infrastructure problems of Russia are solved. I hope Putin, currently more or less dictator, is wise enough to realize that there would be no profit from actually trying to fulfill these threats. The problem is that when you give such threats, and the opponent dares you, you're either forced to give up honor by not fulfilling the threat, or actually fulfill it. The latter case could have devastating consequences, if Russia were to attack a country it has no casus belli to attack. Chechnya is partly that, but in Chechnya there have been many factors preventing the conflict from having global consequences. I can't really judge whether the current Russian administration is one which is known for fulfilling threats. But if it is, their practise of threatening, in combination with the power Russia possesses, could get very dangerous indeed. Not that they could ever win an unprovoked offensive war, but because it would cost a damn lot of lives before it would be over, and because nukes could enter the picture. But my impression is that luckily enough there's not too much prestige and will to fulfill threats in the administration. Let us hope this remains the case, and that Russia's internal problems can be solved.

[Conradus]

Recently I analised which european neighbour of Russia doesn't have any problems with this country and I found that ALL HAVE.

Does that include Belarus? I thought they were still at good terms with the Kremlin.

[Sarmatian]

recently some Russian spokesmen tried to threaten Estonia with economical sanctions - mainly stopping oil export to Estonia.

Which russian spokesman?

Recently I analised which european neighbour of Russia doesn't have any problems with this country and I found that ALL HAVE.
Also all the affairs were started by Russia - is that just clumsy or there is a purpose to create a string of enemies so the society is kept 'united' all the time ? I think it is the second thing.

Well, a common thing for almost all european neighbours of russia is that they are a part of nato. Asian neigbours of russia (and not just neighbours, almost all asian countries) have good relations with russia. You have to look at a bigger picture