Roman troops (suggestion question)

[Spoofa]

I've read, that the roman's cycled their men, first line goes to the back 2nd line fights, 2nd line goes to the back 3rd line fights, while the current line is fighting the rest of the men rest, preparing for their turn, allowing the romans to outlast their opponents in battle, why is this not shown in the roman's troops having superior stamina since i realize there is hardly a very good way to repressent this? or am i wrong?

comments requested.

[CaesarAugustus]

Yes I saw that on HBO's Rome, I've always been curious if they really did this..... If so I guess improved stamina might be one way to represent it. Although (except for phalanx) the units in RTW don't really hold a formation like that.....

[Spoofa]

Yeah i saw it on Rome too (been watching recently, awsome show. simply fantastic.) And read it on wiki (yes unreliable source but.... ) I think it may be feasible.

[Fondor_Yards]

As I understood it, the greek hoplites would do the same thing, or at least plan too. Personal, I doubt they would be able to rotate their lines in the middle of combat. Anyways, I don't see how that would make them more fit, since all units only have 1 line fighting at a time, so everyone has most of their men resting to some degree.

[Spoofa]

I hope a Romani historian would comment on this because i am quite curious...... (also my hastati seem to tire rather quickly, with less armor then the principes should they not at LEAST match their stamina?)

[mAIOR]

@fondor: The problem is, that when you get tired you're most likelly to get killed. That's why the cycling is important. to always have fresh men on the front. You'll end up eventually to catch tired troops.The phalanx was not the same. they behaved diferently it was more like in waves...


Cheers...

[antisocialmunky]

You can do it atleast if there's breaks in attacks. The Romans fought through attrition so I would think something like this(multiple waves, general shuffling) would be a necessity for both sides if the battle lasted.. oh say 3 hours?

[Enguerrand de Sarnéac]

I would suppose that this is a bit the normal tactic when fighting close combat in deep lines... Tired warriors would 1) die 2) step back (without provoking an undisciplined rout) and be replaced by more eager warriors... Why would the Romans be different because they have a whistle?
Could be wrong though, as I've never been in a real close combat so I don't have an idea if there's space to step back.
Since RTW is assuming (I think) that two lines can fight, I think this way to improve stamina to represent the second line seems a bit silly to me

[Reno Melitensis]

This was true for the post-Marian legions. It is not clear when or how this system come in use. Normally a Centuria was made of 80 man. Eight Legionnaries would form a conterburia and sleep, eat and fight together. Some where I read that the eight man in front where replaced by the second line behind them to rest them. This systm made the soldiers bond like brothers and fight like one.

Cheers.

[Zaknafien]

Unfortunately unlike "rome" on HBO, it would not happen in the midst of hand-to-hand combat. Battles fought during antiquity were not the chaotic ninja-flips and beheading dual-wielding melees we see in movies. They were fluid, paced encounters, where a part of the line or a few men would be in contact for a few minutes while elsewhere others were resting, or recooping their courage for a fresh attack, etc. The Romans were famed for their mobile reserves and use of fresh troops to re-inforce the battle line by use of the maniple and cohort.

What this means, is that while some troops were fighting, eventually the two sides would back away and rest. a fresh line of roman troops would take up their place to carry on the next thrust, whilst most of the roman enemies would keep the same men on their line to attain personal combat glory.

Battles lasted for hours this way, ebbing and flowing.

[Spoofa]

ah, well one last question for you, why do Hastati tire out so easily if they are younger and more lightly armored then principes?

[Zaknafien]

well for one thing, just because you're younger doesnt mean youre more vigorous. the hastati and principes wore the same equipment, more or less, the term being 'a full panoply' of gear. in EB II this will be more accurately represented. For the first part, If hastati are teenagers, principes are men in their middle twenties to thirties, in the prime of their life and peak of their physical powers, who've fought in battles before probably.

[Spoofa]

ah, alright thank you for your input

[Watchman]

As I understood it, the greek hoplites would do the same thing, or at least plan too. Personal, I doubt they would be able to rotate their lines in the middle of combat.

AFAIK they just formed the battleline and charged en masse. Of course if neither side broke they'd eventually pull back and regroup for another go, although I understand phalanx shieldwall fighting was so psychologically taxing things got normally resolved comparatively quickly. Most references I've seen mentioned about "falling back in good order" (to directly paraphrase a Warhammer Ancient Battles rule) to regroup were in the context of a superior force trying to dislodge a smaller group from an advantageous position, but I'll freely admit my reading on the topic is really rather sparse.

Anyway, the Roman manipular/cohort system differed from the rather linear hoplite tactics specifically in the emphasis on being easily able to swap the frontline units for fresh ones. Hence the characteristic "chequerboard" battle order - the maniples could simply advance and retreat past each other as needed.

[sgsandor]

Anthor mention of eb2? (drool) I dont know but i think they way it was depicyed in the first episode of Rome was pretty close.Of course things didnt always go smooth in battle and a centurian could get killed(i read somewhere their causlity rate was higher) they order of rotation could become null and void. Just a thought not that i know

[Intranetusa]

Switching/cycling lines doesn't work for RTW because it is much better in this game to form a long line and then surround the enemy. In RTW/EB, it is far more effective to have all your units engaged rather than have a portion engaged and another portion resting...

[Watchman]

Of course things didnt always go smooth in battle and a centurian could get killed(i read somewhere their causlity rate was higher) they order of rotation could become null and void.

I doubt if the rotation was dependent on the centurion still being around. The somewhat thankless job of those fellows was, after all, to be the guy who yells "Charge!" and goes first so the mass of hesitant trained monkeys behind him will hopefully follow his lead instead of sitting on their thumbs looking anxious. Obviously, this meant they had rather disproportionally high casualty rates, and given how central rotating the front-rank formations was for Roman tactics I very much doubt if so casualty-prone officers played a critical part in the system.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I doubt if the rotation was dependent on the centurion still being around. The somewhat thankless job of those fellows was, after all, to be the guy who yells "Charge!" and goes first so the mass of hesitant trained monkeys behind him will hopefully follow his lead instead of sitting on their thumbs looking anxious. Obviously, this meant they had rather disproportionally high casualty rates, and given how central rotating the front-rank formations was for Roman tactics I very much doubt if so casualty-prone officers played a critical part in the system.

LOL ...trained monkeys...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The most likely candidate for ordering the ranks to change would be the Optio (Centurian's 2ic). In any case I suspect it was more likely a question of moving through the ranks as they advanced.

First rank takes a pace, shield punch, kill.

Second rank takes a pace through first rank, shiel punch, kill.

In the same way with retiring, only reversed. Shield punch, kill, step back.

This would allow the Romans to execute the tactical withdralls they were famous for.

It certainly didn't involve a timed whistle. I defy anyone to do commands by whistle when all they can hear is the blood in their ears.

[sgsandor]

Very good points to all above! The Romans def pulled off amazing feats , I however have yet to tactically withdraw without the unit getting stabbed in the back while trying to get behind the next line i will figure this out

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Charge the second unit through the first.

[Zaknafien]

thats what I was gonna say. they'll pass through each other. just make sure when your hastati withdraw you click the 'run' button to get them out of the fray quickly while the principes are charging through.