Fun with Shinobi

[ReluctantSamurai]

Shifting in e.g. 25 shinobis into a province causing a revolt and leaving the AI with no means of offsetting this.

Hmm.......I never use this many in a single province, anyway. Usually, no more than six, but a port city might get more if the AI keeps shifting more and more troops to counter-act the shinobi.......but still I never put that many into a single province.

If you have backwater provinces that aren't worth building up then you can spam shinobi into them to keep them under control.

Doesn't the AI use the very same tactic, however? From what I've noticed, if an AI province has low economic value...and it has no common border with an enemy clan or rebels....it does exactly that

AFAIAC, that's one of the ways the game can bog down into trench warfare.....with stacks of armies sitting staring at each other across borders. I detest this kind of game as it leads to the aforementioned 3hr battles against wave after wave of reinforcements

That's when I kick shinobi production into high-gear, and form "wandering unrest" groups to force the AI to break down huge multi-stack armies to deal with the rebellions. That's how I finally got the aforementioned 12,000 man army in Shinano to disperse enough to the point where I could attack. Otherwise, I would have just thrown in 12,000 of my own troops and auto-resolved the whole thing

[Brave]

I cannot recall how much fun I have had with Shinobi.

[Togakure]

TOTAL war is military, economic, diplomatic, and definitely involves intelligence! Let us not forget Sun Tzu, neh? While the model used in Shogun is very simple, it is effective. I use shinobi extensively. My standard garrison behind the front lines is a shinobi and an ashigaru. Two shinobis and a ninja in ports. I keep my taxes on punitive. I almost never build Border Watch Towers or Forts. Shinobi make much more sense both economically and in regard to flexibility. Every koku counts if you're playing against the clock (trying to take Japan as quickly as possible, with as few lives lost as possible)

I love sending emissaries on a run through enemy territory and then back into one of mine that's loaded with shinobi (take a circular path, don't backtrack, and don't stay out too long). I call it ninja fishing, and I catch a lot this way. I do this whenever I get hit more than once by one in the same area. Works like a charm--ninja roll, anyone?

Shinobi are GREAT for stalling the fast advances of Shimazu and Mori in the west (any enemy advance, for that matter). Just send them behind their front line and watch them slow down as they have to deal with keeping recently-conquered provinces under control.

Putting them in a province that is attacking you is cool too. They attack, you defeat them, and they have a rebellion to deal with in the province they return to on the next turn.

I disagree with Caravel's position. More spies in a province should have a greater effect; from my point of view this is simply logical. I hate the way spies are implemented in MTW and VI and rarely use them. The trick to avoiding exploit is not to use them in a exploitive way (if that concerns you; again, in SP, whatever floats your boat). My two oban.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I call it ninja fishing, and I catch a lot this way.

Glad to see someone else uses this tactic. It's especially effective when at least one of your shinobi is lvl 5.

The trick to avoiding exploit is not to use them in a exploitive way

Exactly! Dump just enough into a province to lower loyalty drastically even to the point of rebellion.....and move on

[caravel]

I disagree with Caravel's position. More spies in a province should have a greater effect; from my point of view this is simply logical. I hate the way spies are implemented in MTW and VI and rarely use them. The trick to avoiding exploit is not to use them in a exploitive way (if that concerns you; again, in SP, whatever floats your boat). My two oban.

The only difference is their effect on happiness. I disagree with a province having 600% happiness under any circumstances. In all other respects Spies in MTW work exactly as they do in STW AFAIK.

[Togakure]

First, I should have stated that I disagreed with the point of view; it was not necessary to include the person whose point of view it was. Please excuse me, Caravel.

Hmm ... I don't recall ever seeing a province with 600% happiness before. I think it's good not to get overly involved with mathematical specifics--I like that there is a high level of abstraction because it leaves room for a lot of imagination. In the case of a province with a ridiculously high happiness percentage, I just interpret that as the province being extremely content and loyal to the governing clan, and it's not likely at all that any amount of negative influence will change that.

I don't normally use more than two spies for counter-intelligence in a single province of mine; I do send large teams of spies into provinces to sow seeds of dissent, spread misinformation, incite fear, destroy assets, etc. Compared to the cost of military troops, the cost of an average spy is less (particularly in that period in Japan, I would think)--hence, no upkeep cost (the model is simple, and nicely so, I think). The AI does use agents obviously, but I've never seen anything written up about how they are programmed. That would be a very interesting read.

In VI the infrastructure required to build spies is expensive and takes a very long time compared to STW. Because it costs so much more to produce them and you get less out of them, I don't use them much. I use other agents to perform their role (love those inquisitors and high-valor assassins).

*bows back*

[caravel]

First, I should have stated that I disagreed with the point of view; it was not necessary to include the person whose point of view it was. Please excuse me, Caravel.

No really, no offence was taken.

Hmm ... I don't recall ever seeing a province with 600% happiness before. I think it's good not to get overly involved with mathematical specifics--I like that there is a high level of abstraction because it leaves room for a lot of imagination. In the case of a province with a ridiculously high happiness percentage, I just interpret that as the province being extremely content and loyal to the governing clan, and it's not likely at all that any amount of negative influence will change that.

A large number of spies can have this effect. I find them somewhat too easy to exploit which is why I prefer the way MTW handles spies. The main flaw with both games is border forts. These tend to render counterspies much less important and make some assassination or spying missions not worth even taking on.

I don't normally use more than two spies for counter-intelligence in a single province of mine; I do send large teams of spies into provinces to sow seeds of dissent, spread misinformation, incite fear, destroy assets, etc. Compared to the cost of military troops, the cost of an average spy is less (particularly in that period in Japan, I would think)--hence, no upkeep cost (the model is simple, and nicely so, I think). The AI does use agents obviously, but I've never seen anything written up about how they are programmed. That would be a very interesting read.

For me it's always one spy per province unless a rogue assassin or spy has infiltrated, then I may move in a small group of my best to try and discover rival assassin/spy.

In VI the infrastructure required to build spies is expensive and takes a very long time compared to STW. Because it costs so much more to produce them and you get less out of them, I don't use them much. I use other agents to perform their role (love those inquisitors and high-valor assassins).

*bows back*

True, in MTW vanilla the Tavern/brothel line was without upgrades and in MTW/VI it became upgradeable but upgrades were expensive, slow to build and tied to castle levels. The VI campaign itself handles it better in that the upgrades are easier to get (much like in STW) and the highest level brothel is available to build. Removing border forts makes the biggest difference though. The map swarms with spies and assassins and it's a hard job keeping them out of your lands.

[Drisos]

Hmm ... I don't recall ever seeing a province with 600% happiness before.

I recall loyalty percentages of above 1000%. No spies, just thousands of troops in 1 region works pretty well.

I can't recall though why I had such ridiculously large army in one region. Probably near the end of a campaign.