Fun with Shinobi

[caravel]

I disagree with Caravel's position. More spies in a province should have a greater effect; from my point of view this is simply logical. I hate the way spies are implemented in MTW and VI and rarely use them. The trick to avoiding exploit is not to use them in a exploitive way (if that concerns you; again, in SP, whatever floats your boat). My two oban.

The only difference is their effect on happiness. I disagree with a province having 600% happiness under any circumstances. In all other respects Spies in MTW work exactly as they do in STW AFAIK.

[Togakure]

First, I should have stated that I disagreed with the point of view; it was not necessary to include the person whose point of view it was. Please excuse me, Caravel.

Hmm ... I don't recall ever seeing a province with 600% happiness before. I think it's good not to get overly involved with mathematical specifics--I like that there is a high level of abstraction because it leaves room for a lot of imagination. In the case of a province with a ridiculously high happiness percentage, I just interpret that as the province being extremely content and loyal to the governing clan, and it's not likely at all that any amount of negative influence will change that.

I don't normally use more than two spies for counter-intelligence in a single province of mine; I do send large teams of spies into provinces to sow seeds of dissent, spread misinformation, incite fear, destroy assets, etc. Compared to the cost of military troops, the cost of an average spy is less (particularly in that period in Japan, I would think)--hence, no upkeep cost (the model is simple, and nicely so, I think). The AI does use agents obviously, but I've never seen anything written up about how they are programmed. That would be a very interesting read.

In VI the infrastructure required to build spies is expensive and takes a very long time compared to STW. Because it costs so much more to produce them and you get less out of them, I don't use them much. I use other agents to perform their role (love those inquisitors and high-valor assassins).

*bows back*

[caravel]

First, I should have stated that I disagreed with the point of view; it was not necessary to include the person whose point of view it was. Please excuse me, Caravel.

No really, no offence was taken.

Hmm ... I don't recall ever seeing a province with 600% happiness before. I think it's good not to get overly involved with mathematical specifics--I like that there is a high level of abstraction because it leaves room for a lot of imagination. In the case of a province with a ridiculously high happiness percentage, I just interpret that as the province being extremely content and loyal to the governing clan, and it's not likely at all that any amount of negative influence will change that.

A large number of spies can have this effect. I find them somewhat too easy to exploit which is why I prefer the way MTW handles spies. The main flaw with both games is border forts. These tend to render counterspies much less important and make some assassination or spying missions not worth even taking on.

I don't normally use more than two spies for counter-intelligence in a single province of mine; I do send large teams of spies into provinces to sow seeds of dissent, spread misinformation, incite fear, destroy assets, etc. Compared to the cost of military troops, the cost of an average spy is less (particularly in that period in Japan, I would think)--hence, no upkeep cost (the model is simple, and nicely so, I think). The AI does use agents obviously, but I've never seen anything written up about how they are programmed. That would be a very interesting read.

For me it's always one spy per province unless a rogue assassin or spy has infiltrated, then I may move in a small group of my best to try and discover rival assassin/spy.

In VI the infrastructure required to build spies is expensive and takes a very long time compared to STW. Because it costs so much more to produce them and you get less out of them, I don't use them much. I use other agents to perform their role (love those inquisitors and high-valor assassins).

*bows back*

True, in MTW vanilla the Tavern/brothel line was without upgrades and in MTW/VI it became upgradeable but upgrades were expensive, slow to build and tied to castle levels. The VI campaign itself handles it better in that the upgrades are easier to get (much like in STW) and the highest level brothel is available to build. Removing border forts makes the biggest difference though. The map swarms with spies and assassins and it's a hard job keeping them out of your lands.

[Drisos]

Hmm ... I don't recall ever seeing a province with 600% happiness before.

I recall loyalty percentages of above 1000%. No spies, just thousands of troops in 1 region works pretty well.

I can't recall though why I had such ridiculously large army in one region. Probably near the end of a campaign.

[Wasp]

I recall loyalty percentages of above 1000%. No spies, just thousands of troops in 1 region works pretty well.

I can't recall though why I had such ridiculously large army in one region. Probably near the end of a campaign.

Indeed. Even a relatively normal-sized army can boost the loyalty to 400-500 %

[ReluctantSamurai]

I too, have seen loyalty % well in excess of 1000, especially when there's just you and one other clan left.....and the frontier is filled with stacks and stacks....

[Togakure]

I recall loyalty percentages of above 1000%. No spies, just thousands of troops in 1 region works pretty well.

I can't recall though why I had such ridiculously large army in one region. Probably near the end of a campaign.

Indeed, I've been playing SP campaigns sporadically over the last couple of weeks, and have noticed loyalties up to the 600s. None resulted from shinobi, but definitely it happens with large armies occupying provinces. It had been a very long time since I'd played, so I guess I'd just forgotten.

I was using packs of shinobi (up to 8) as instigators over the weekend, stalling Mori's advance (as Tokugawa, 1580) in the west as I dealt with the east. It worked well, though they ended up with several 4-5-star generals as a result. A good thing they don't have a large number of troops in that scenario! In this campaign, I allow myself one Geisha (my rationalization is that, being the specialty of Imagawa-Tokugawa, agents are intended to be used more, as the Tokugawa starting position in 1580 is quite difficult both militarily and economically). This one geisha (my tribute to "Mariko" in this campaign scenario), was instrumental in my victory. A long-standing alliance with Katsuyori, weathering several choices where I chose to remain allied to the Takeda despite their aggresion against other clans, paid off. When I finally got shinobi reports that the Takeda were planning an attack on my lands, I assassinated Katsuyori. As the only ally, Tokugawa inherited his lands and troops, paving the way for quick and decisive victory in the east. Shimazu and Mori had just begun to fight each other for the west, and a quick lightning campaign against a strong but spread out Hojo enabled me to establish control of the east before either the Shimazu or Mori could dominate the west. The rest was cruise control.

[ReluctantSamurai]

It worked well, though they ended up with several 4-5-star generals as a result.

Which is why I always follow up with a ninja to take care of those. It's kinda amusing to see a two or three unit clan army beat nearly full stacks of rebels

In this campaign, I allow myself one Geisha (my rationalization is that, being the specialty of Imagawa-Tokugawa, agents are intended to be used more, as the Tokugawa starting position in 1580 is quite difficult both militarily and economically).

Although I don't use geisha at all, I do understand the intent. I had one campaign where I was fighting a two-front war against a combined Mori-Shimazu alliance from the south, and a Uesugi-Takeda alliance from the north.

Now I've had my share of unfavorable harvests, but THIS campaign took the cake. Seven....count 'em....SEVEN consecutive years of poor harvests, and ten in fifteen years

I was barely keeping up with replacements costs, let alone creating new units or doing any building/upgrading..................

So I was forced into doing something I don't like doing.....wholesale assassination of enemy daimyo & heirs Anything to slow down the constant assaults on my borders. It worked mainly because Takeda decided to break its alliance with the Uesugi and the resulting infighting allowed me some breathing room..........and FINALLY......FINALLY......the AI decided to allow me some good harvest years so I could catch up

[Togakure]

Which is why I always follow up with a ninja to take care of those. ...

Although I don't use geisha at all, I do understand the intent. I ...

Interesting idea, using ninja to remove the general before he gains a lot of honor. The thing about ninja for me is that, at 200 koku each, they're expensive for a "throw away" unit. I tend to push through a campaign somewhat rapidly, so koku is usually very tight until the end game. 200 koku buys a squad of Yari Samurai, two Yari Ashigaru garrisons, two shinobi, or two Arqebusier units, and I usually need them more than ninja.

I say "somewhat rapidly" because I tend to finish a campaign in 15-25 years. Some of the hotshots that have posted here can finish (total domination) in 10-12 years.

I rarely use geisha also. The Tokugawa 1580 campaign is an exception. Otherwise, if I build them at all it's to counter enemy geishas on Expert Difficulty. In a game last week, I managed to counter two enemy geishas with ninja only. It cost me several good ninja and one two-star taisho, but my men in black eventually got them both. As soon as I saw one appear, I sent out my spies and emissaries to locate the geisha house, and destroyed it asap.

Yeah tell me about it, in my 1580 campaign I got about six poor harvests in a row, very early in the game. With only Totomi, Mikawa, and Owari, that hurt! I made ends meet by building ports and trading posts, raiding Oda lands, and then Shimazu lands when they broke treaty and invaded my abandoned, defenseless Hizen (I feel crafty allying with Shimazu and leaving Hizen defenseless, and sending an emissary to wait in Satsuma; when he gets greedy and takes Hizen, I send my men in black to raze Satsuma--highly developed and worth a lot of koku--to the ground).