Fun with Shinobi

[Martok]

Now that I finally have a new PC, I've reinstalled Shogun and have been playing a Hojo campaign on & off this last week. And I have to say, I'd forgotten just how effective the Shinobi can be!

I had gotten stuck in a "cold war" with the Uesugi -- both of us had built up significant forces along our mutual border, and I was looking for an opportunity to break the deadlock. That opportunity came when I realized the Uesugi had absolutely no troops stationed in Dewa, which as most of you know is one of their richest provinces (along with Echigo and Mutsu). Acting quickly, I trained and dispatched a group of 6 Shinobi to foment unrest there.

The results were both immediate and gratifying: All of Dewa rose up in rebellion, forcing the Uesugi to divert army units from other parts of their domain to put down the uprising. I then moved my Shinobi over to Echigo and provoked another rebellion. I went on to repeat this tactic over and over, moving my 10 Shinobi (I eventually sent in another 4 Shinobi to reinforce the first group) back & forth between the two provinces, fomenting discontent among the local populace.

The poor Uesugi simply couldn't do anything to stop the phenomenon. They would put down one rebellion in Echigo, only to have another one immediately spring up (yet again) in Dewa. I've never really made the AI play "Whack-a-mole" before; and I have to say it was pretty hillarious! I actually started to feel a little bad for my enemy (even though he was contantly sending Ninja and Shinobi into my territory).

As amusing as my spies' antics were, however, they were only a means to an end, as I'd procured their services mostly to distract the Uesugi from focusing their efforts on me. I finally launched my long-planned (and admittedly very overdue) invasion of their territory in 1545. I landed an army in Echigo by sea that spring, and attacked Mutsu from Sozuke(sp?) & Hitachi in the autumn. Summer of 1546 saw the conquest of Dewa as well, after which the enemy gratefully accepted my offer of a ceasefire.

It should be noted that throughout my campaign against the Uesugi, my Shinobi (all of whom had 5 stars by now) were there to ensure the Uesugi had to fight not only myself, but a bunch of rebels as well. Their effect was especially spectactular in Echigo, where I was facing the unappetizing prospect of a bridge battle. So imagine my pleasant surprise when the rebel army that appeared there allied with me on the spot and drove off the Uesugi for me! Thanks to them, I conquered Echigo without a single Samurai lost.

I realize that the tactic of utilizing Shinobi the way I did is pretty "gamey", and I doubt I'll use is that much from now on. But oh, how I laughed as I watched them wreack havoc on my enemy....

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yes that's always been fun. Although I never got the AI to take back the rebel provinces. What usually happened was I sent a bunch of shinobi over, the province rebelled, the AI abandonded it and then when I went through I had to fight all the rebels I'd created

[Martok]

Really? That just surprises me, given this most recent experience of mine. I must've stirred up about a dozen rebellions in Echigo & Dewa, but the Uesugi moved to supress every single one. (Perhaps the AI will try to hold onto provinces that are of a certain value?) The only time they actually abandoned the province entirely was when my daimyo personally led an army into Dewa -- Uesugi quite correctly calculated that he couldn't face the combined forces of both the rebels and myself. Aside from that one time, however, the Uesugi never just abandoned a province to the rebels I stirred up.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Perhaps the rebellions I created were too large...I was sending 20 or 30 shinobi. Also I don't usually allow the enemy to build large armies, so they would have more trouble putting out rebellions.

[Martok]

Ah, that could be it. Most of the rebellions I riled up were usually only around 300-500 men apiece, which proved to be easy enough for the Uesugi to handle.

So perhaps I've stumbled onto the "ideal" numer of Shinobi to use? Well either way, I certainly won't complain about the results!

[caravel]

Shinobis were very powerful in STW, much moreso than spies in MTW. I did once use the cheesy tactic of building nothing much in many of the provinces I conquered but simply keeping about 3 high honour Shinobi there, then pressing forward. That way you don't have to wait while a province acclimatises to your rule nor build anything in the province.

I've been meaning to ask this stupid question for ages: The one thing I've never understood in STW, well I may have understood it once but I can't remember that now, is the way ports work. What factors determine if an enemy stack can simply jump from one of it's provinces with a port into your province with a port and vice versa?

[Noir]

You just need to have an agent to the port you wish to invade.

If its a visible agent then you'll see the enemy stack coming, but if its a shinobi then you won't. The AI does port raids but very rarely to my experience.

Noir

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well technically speaking the port needs to be visable. Usually this requires an agent to have been there.

[caravel]

That explains it. I now remember why, as a part of my very cheesy strategy, I used to demolish the ports in the backwater provinces to prevent the enemy jumping in there. Also no garrisons means no one to bribe and the three shinobi per province take care of rival factions' shinobi and ninja. The trouble is if it all goes wrong, it goes very wrong.

[Martok]

I don't think I've ever "garrisoned" a province with only Shinobi; I always station at least 1-2 regiment of Ashigaru in my conquered territories as well.

Speaking of Ashigaru, I have to confess I'd kind of forgotten (as with so many things in this game, apparently) just how effective they can be, given the right situation. While I was making preparartions for my war with the Uesugi, Takeda attacked Musashi a couple different times, which of course meant they had to try and force their way across the river there. While I was never in any real danger of losing either battle (I had more than sufficient YS and SA for the job), I was particuarly impressed with the performance of the YA in both battles.

They fought off everything (and I do mean everything) almost entirely by themselves -- Yaris, YC, even Lord Takeda's personal bodyguard! They simply would not break. Now while I'm sure it didn't hurt that they were backed up by several regiments of Yari Samurai and had ample missile support from my Archers, the fact remains that my Ashi still did most of the killing themselves, and only routed when they were down to about 20% of their original strength. The real fait accompli was that they personally killed Takeda Shingen in the second battle; it must've been a humiliating way for the bastard to die.

[caravel]

I don't think I've ever "garrisoned" a province with only Shinobi; I always station at least 1-2 regiment of Ashigaru in my conquered territories as well.

I've had 75% of my provinces containing border forts, shinobi and farmland upgrades and not much else.

[Drisos]

It's fun to do yes. I remember a time I used it effectively, causing one revolt after another making my enemy significantly weaker. However I prefer to just conquer the map by winning battles.. and usually I invade important economic regions, regions with rivers(ai is simply beaten at high mountains, even at expert.. river regions tough still cost me lots of men mostly), regions with expensive buildlings by the sea. Will cause them to lose income, ability to create troops, and they'll need to split up their border armies to take back the lost regions. Helps a lot.

[Martok]

Yeah, when I launched my war against the Uesugi, it was never my intention to destroy them (not that I would've complained had I somehow managed to do so), but to sieze their three "big money" provinces -- Dewa, Echigo, & Mutsu (they'd lost Shinano to Imagawa early on). Aside from the considerable income I gained from these lands, it also gave me a border that was considerably easier to defend -- far better than trying to guard Hitachi & Shimotsuke, which are both flat lowland provinces! Now my border garrisons can be concentrated into 4 provinces: 2 with mountainous terrain (Dewa & Kozuke) and 2 with rivers (Echigo & Musashi).

Speaking of rivers.... Uesugi had almost the perfect order of battle in Echigo with which to thwart any attempt to sieze the bridge there -- 3 units of YS with about 6-7 regiments of Samurai Archers. Even though I'd brought a considerable army to the fight (a full stack) and thus outnumbered him significantly, I shudder to think what my losses would've been had I had to try and force my way across. (So for that reason, I'm very, very glad those rebels in Echigo were able to drive off the Uesugi army for me! )

Also, I have to say the Uesugi's army in Mutsu wasn't easy to defeat either. As a matter of fact, they were able to repel my first invasion of their home province (my fault for relying too much on Yari Cavalry ) -- I had to regroup and attack again in the spring of 1546 (at which point I was finally victorious). The Uesugi had - unsurprisingly - stationed a significant number of SA in Mutsu (even more than they'd had in Echigo), and they simply cut my troops to ribbons while I was trying to maneuver around their primary position for a better assault vector. (Their Archers also managed to somehow rout my cavalry in melee as well -- talk about humiliating! )

Anyway, seeing the Uesugi's army compositions in both Echigo and Mutsu got me wondering something I'd never really considered until now: Does the AI actively try to build up defensive garrisons appropriate to the province it's guarding (mostly YS/SA armies in mountain & river provinces, cavalry-heavy armies in plain provinces, etc.)? Or was it mostly dumb luck that the Uesugi happened to have armies (mostly) ideally suited to the terrain they were defending?

[caravel]

Now that I've got my new hard disk drive I may install Shogun again, as I no longer have to juggle stuff around for space. I had been running on a temporary, and crap, 20GB HDD for several months (it was about to die). I now have plenty of space so there is no reason not to install Shogun. I could easily fit Rome on there as well, but there isn't really much point is there...

I remember a particular thread in here regarding restoring the unit stats from STW instead of playing using the ones from MI (or have I got that wrong? I can never remember exactly which version of STW/MI it was in which the stats were messed up?), I'll have to look that up again, or maybe I simply won't install MI. I can't remember exactly what it adds to the game apart from the Mongol campaign and a few new units.

Edit: Oh yes and I promise that my cheesy shinobi spamming days are long over with.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Oh yes and I promise that my cheesy shinobi spamming days are long over with.

First of all, sorry for the thread necromancy, but this topic is very dear to my heart.............

I fail to see how using spies to foment unrest should be considered cheesy The fact that massive armies can be stacked in a province without any thought what-so-ever of the logistics that would be needed to keep such armies there............... is cheesy. I had a campaign once where Oda kept well in excess of 12,000 troops stationed in Shinano for some 20yrs. waiting for me to attack (I was playing as Takeda and we were not officially at war but had several border clashes that were quickly followed by cease-fires). Yes I know castles can be stocked with supplies but in this case there was no castle due to the province changing hands so often, so technically the province could not possibly support this many troops. Add to that the fact that sitting for so long in one place surely would degrade troop readiness and skills would get quite rusty without constant honing in battle.

And this is just one example I can think of how cheesy some of the aspects of this game can be.

That said, I take the shinobi-horde one step further by sending in an assassin to kill an enemy Taisho that is gaining command stars by quelling rebellions. I do not use geisha and I do not kill enemy Daimyo's or heirs with this method, only Taisho's.

AFAIAC, throwing oneself at the enemy's strength is violating nearly every principle of Sun Tzu that is espoused during the game. Certainly direct assault is called for, at times, but I get no joy out of fighting 3-hour battles against huge multiple-stack armies again and again to defeat my enemy. If I can distract him......cause him to split up and dilute his forces...then hit him where he is weakest, I call that sound strategy.

[Wasp]

I only use ninja's and shinobi much if I'm playing the Imagawa. I try to use each clan's advantages - cavalry when Takeda, archers when Uesugi, etc. So the shinobi tactic isn't one of my favourites (although I like Imagawa a lot).

[caravel]

Shinobi spamming is a cheesy tactic in STW because they work differently in that game compared to how they function in MTW. In MTw you can put 20 spies in a province and it won't matter, only the highest level spy will have an effect on the provinces happiness. In STW you can add more an more shinobi to a province to increase/decrease happiness more and more. The reason I say this is "cheesy" is because it is what we term here as an exploit and can work in two ways:

1) Shifting in e.g. 25 shinobis into a province causing a revolt and leaving the AI with no means of offsetting this. This can of course backfire and create AI jedi generals so when trying to pull this off it's important to target provinces that are led my an unstarred general.

2) Multiple shinobis cost nothing to support and as such you can garrison your provinces with them instead of supporting troops. If you have backwater provinces that aren't worth building up then you can spam shinobi into them to keep them under control. This allows for rapid expansion as newly conquered territory can be subdued quickly.

In this case it was a good move by the developer to remove the cumulative effect of spies.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Shifting in e.g. 25 shinobis into a province causing a revolt and leaving the AI with no means of offsetting this.

Hmm.......I never use this many in a single province, anyway. Usually, no more than six, but a port city might get more if the AI keeps shifting more and more troops to counter-act the shinobi.......but still I never put that many into a single province.

If you have backwater provinces that aren't worth building up then you can spam shinobi into them to keep them under control.

Doesn't the AI use the very same tactic, however? From what I've noticed, if an AI province has low economic value...and it has no common border with an enemy clan or rebels....it does exactly that

AFAIAC, that's one of the ways the game can bog down into trench warfare.....with stacks of armies sitting staring at each other across borders. I detest this kind of game as it leads to the aforementioned 3hr battles against wave after wave of reinforcements

That's when I kick shinobi production into high-gear, and form "wandering unrest" groups to force the AI to break down huge multi-stack armies to deal with the rebellions. That's how I finally got the aforementioned 12,000 man army in Shinano to disperse enough to the point where I could attack. Otherwise, I would have just thrown in 12,000 of my own troops and auto-resolved the whole thing

[Brave]

I cannot recall how much fun I have had with Shinobi.

[Togakure]

TOTAL war is military, economic, diplomatic, and definitely involves intelligence! Let us not forget Sun Tzu, neh? While the model used in Shogun is very simple, it is effective. I use shinobi extensively. My standard garrison behind the front lines is a shinobi and an ashigaru. Two shinobis and a ninja in ports. I keep my taxes on punitive. I almost never build Border Watch Towers or Forts. Shinobi make much more sense both economically and in regard to flexibility. Every koku counts if you're playing against the clock (trying to take Japan as quickly as possible, with as few lives lost as possible)

I love sending emissaries on a run through enemy territory and then back into one of mine that's loaded with shinobi (take a circular path, don't backtrack, and don't stay out too long). I call it ninja fishing, and I catch a lot this way. I do this whenever I get hit more than once by one in the same area. Works like a charm--ninja roll, anyone?

Shinobi are GREAT for stalling the fast advances of Shimazu and Mori in the west (any enemy advance, for that matter). Just send them behind their front line and watch them slow down as they have to deal with keeping recently-conquered provinces under control.

Putting them in a province that is attacking you is cool too. They attack, you defeat them, and they have a rebellion to deal with in the province they return to on the next turn.

I disagree with Caravel's position. More spies in a province should have a greater effect; from my point of view this is simply logical. I hate the way spies are implemented in MTW and VI and rarely use them. The trick to avoiding exploit is not to use them in a exploitive way (if that concerns you; again, in SP, whatever floats your boat). My two oban.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I call it ninja fishing, and I catch a lot this way.

Glad to see someone else uses this tactic. It's especially effective when at least one of your shinobi is lvl 5.

The trick to avoiding exploit is not to use them in a exploitive way

Exactly! Dump just enough into a province to lower loyalty drastically even to the point of rebellion.....and move on

[caravel]

I disagree with Caravel's position. More spies in a province should have a greater effect; from my point of view this is simply logical. I hate the way spies are implemented in MTW and VI and rarely use them. The trick to avoiding exploit is not to use them in a exploitive way (if that concerns you; again, in SP, whatever floats your boat). My two oban.

The only difference is their effect on happiness. I disagree with a province having 600% happiness under any circumstances. In all other respects Spies in MTW work exactly as they do in STW AFAIK.

[Togakure]

First, I should have stated that I disagreed with the point of view; it was not necessary to include the person whose point of view it was. Please excuse me, Caravel.

Hmm ... I don't recall ever seeing a province with 600% happiness before. I think it's good not to get overly involved with mathematical specifics--I like that there is a high level of abstraction because it leaves room for a lot of imagination. In the case of a province with a ridiculously high happiness percentage, I just interpret that as the province being extremely content and loyal to the governing clan, and it's not likely at all that any amount of negative influence will change that.

I don't normally use more than two spies for counter-intelligence in a single province of mine; I do send large teams of spies into provinces to sow seeds of dissent, spread misinformation, incite fear, destroy assets, etc. Compared to the cost of military troops, the cost of an average spy is less (particularly in that period in Japan, I would think)--hence, no upkeep cost (the model is simple, and nicely so, I think). The AI does use agents obviously, but I've never seen anything written up about how they are programmed. That would be a very interesting read.

In VI the infrastructure required to build spies is expensive and takes a very long time compared to STW. Because it costs so much more to produce them and you get less out of them, I don't use them much. I use other agents to perform their role (love those inquisitors and high-valor assassins).

*bows back*

[caravel]

First, I should have stated that I disagreed with the point of view; it was not necessary to include the person whose point of view it was. Please excuse me, Caravel.

No really, no offence was taken.

Hmm ... I don't recall ever seeing a province with 600% happiness before. I think it's good not to get overly involved with mathematical specifics--I like that there is a high level of abstraction because it leaves room for a lot of imagination. In the case of a province with a ridiculously high happiness percentage, I just interpret that as the province being extremely content and loyal to the governing clan, and it's not likely at all that any amount of negative influence will change that.

A large number of spies can have this effect. I find them somewhat too easy to exploit which is why I prefer the way MTW handles spies. The main flaw with both games is border forts. These tend to render counterspies much less important and make some assassination or spying missions not worth even taking on.

I don't normally use more than two spies for counter-intelligence in a single province of mine; I do send large teams of spies into provinces to sow seeds of dissent, spread misinformation, incite fear, destroy assets, etc. Compared to the cost of military troops, the cost of an average spy is less (particularly in that period in Japan, I would think)--hence, no upkeep cost (the model is simple, and nicely so, I think). The AI does use agents obviously, but I've never seen anything written up about how they are programmed. That would be a very interesting read.

For me it's always one spy per province unless a rogue assassin or spy has infiltrated, then I may move in a small group of my best to try and discover rival assassin/spy.

In VI the infrastructure required to build spies is expensive and takes a very long time compared to STW. Because it costs so much more to produce them and you get less out of them, I don't use them much. I use other agents to perform their role (love those inquisitors and high-valor assassins).

*bows back*

True, in MTW vanilla the Tavern/brothel line was without upgrades and in MTW/VI it became upgradeable but upgrades were expensive, slow to build and tied to castle levels. The VI campaign itself handles it better in that the upgrades are easier to get (much like in STW) and the highest level brothel is available to build. Removing border forts makes the biggest difference though. The map swarms with spies and assassins and it's a hard job keeping them out of your lands.

[Drisos]

Hmm ... I don't recall ever seeing a province with 600% happiness before.

I recall loyalty percentages of above 1000%. No spies, just thousands of troops in 1 region works pretty well.

I can't recall though why I had such ridiculously large army in one region. Probably near the end of a campaign.

[Wasp]

I recall loyalty percentages of above 1000%. No spies, just thousands of troops in 1 region works pretty well.

I can't recall though why I had such ridiculously large army in one region. Probably near the end of a campaign.

Indeed. Even a relatively normal-sized army can boost the loyalty to 400-500 %

[ReluctantSamurai]

I too, have seen loyalty % well in excess of 1000, especially when there's just you and one other clan left.....and the frontier is filled with stacks and stacks....

[Togakure]

I recall loyalty percentages of above 1000%. No spies, just thousands of troops in 1 region works pretty well.

I can't recall though why I had such ridiculously large army in one region. Probably near the end of a campaign.

Indeed, I've been playing SP campaigns sporadically over the last couple of weeks, and have noticed loyalties up to the 600s. None resulted from shinobi, but definitely it happens with large armies occupying provinces. It had been a very long time since I'd played, so I guess I'd just forgotten.

I was using packs of shinobi (up to 8) as instigators over the weekend, stalling Mori's advance (as Tokugawa, 1580) in the west as I dealt with the east. It worked well, though they ended up with several 4-5-star generals as a result. A good thing they don't have a large number of troops in that scenario! In this campaign, I allow myself one Geisha (my rationalization is that, being the specialty of Imagawa-Tokugawa, agents are intended to be used more, as the Tokugawa starting position in 1580 is quite difficult both militarily and economically). This one geisha (my tribute to "Mariko" in this campaign scenario), was instrumental in my victory. A long-standing alliance with Katsuyori, weathering several choices where I chose to remain allied to the Takeda despite their aggresion against other clans, paid off. When I finally got shinobi reports that the Takeda were planning an attack on my lands, I assassinated Katsuyori. As the only ally, Tokugawa inherited his lands and troops, paving the way for quick and decisive victory in the east. Shimazu and Mori had just begun to fight each other for the west, and a quick lightning campaign against a strong but spread out Hojo enabled me to establish control of the east before either the Shimazu or Mori could dominate the west. The rest was cruise control.

[ReluctantSamurai]

It worked well, though they ended up with several 4-5-star generals as a result.

Which is why I always follow up with a ninja to take care of those. It's kinda amusing to see a two or three unit clan army beat nearly full stacks of rebels

In this campaign, I allow myself one Geisha (my rationalization is that, being the specialty of Imagawa-Tokugawa, agents are intended to be used more, as the Tokugawa starting position in 1580 is quite difficult both militarily and economically).

Although I don't use geisha at all, I do understand the intent. I had one campaign where I was fighting a two-front war against a combined Mori-Shimazu alliance from the south, and a Uesugi-Takeda alliance from the north.

Now I've had my share of unfavorable harvests, but THIS campaign took the cake. Seven....count 'em....SEVEN consecutive years of poor harvests, and ten in fifteen years

I was barely keeping up with replacements costs, let alone creating new units or doing any building/upgrading..................

So I was forced into doing something I don't like doing.....wholesale assassination of enemy daimyo & heirs Anything to slow down the constant assaults on my borders. It worked mainly because Takeda decided to break its alliance with the Uesugi and the resulting infighting allowed me some breathing room..........and FINALLY......FINALLY......the AI decided to allow me some good harvest years so I could catch up

[Togakure]

Which is why I always follow up with a ninja to take care of those. ...

Although I don't use geisha at all, I do understand the intent. I ...

Interesting idea, using ninja to remove the general before he gains a lot of honor. The thing about ninja for me is that, at 200 koku each, they're expensive for a "throw away" unit. I tend to push through a campaign somewhat rapidly, so koku is usually very tight until the end game. 200 koku buys a squad of Yari Samurai, two Yari Ashigaru garrisons, two shinobi, or two Arqebusier units, and I usually need them more than ninja.

I say "somewhat rapidly" because I tend to finish a campaign in 15-25 years. Some of the hotshots that have posted here can finish (total domination) in 10-12 years.

I rarely use geisha also. The Tokugawa 1580 campaign is an exception. Otherwise, if I build them at all it's to counter enemy geishas on Expert Difficulty. In a game last week, I managed to counter two enemy geishas with ninja only. It cost me several good ninja and one two-star taisho, but my men in black eventually got them both. As soon as I saw one appear, I sent out my spies and emissaries to locate the geisha house, and destroyed it asap.

Yeah tell me about it, in my 1580 campaign I got about six poor harvests in a row, very early in the game. With only Totomi, Mikawa, and Owari, that hurt! I made ends meet by building ports and trading posts, raiding Oda lands, and then Shimazu lands when they broke treaty and invaded my abandoned, defenseless Hizen (I feel crafty allying with Shimazu and leaving Hizen defenseless, and sending an emissary to wait in Satsuma; when he gets greedy and takes Hizen, I send my men in black to raze Satsuma--highly developed and worth a lot of koku--to the ground).