Ok, I REALLY hope they fix the passive AI

[Agent Smith]

Just finishing up as Scotland. I have control of most of the Holy Land, and I just got to the invasion of the Timurids. I spent a ton of money to get an alliance with them. Of course, that didn't mean anything. They passed up all of the Turks' territory and headed straight for Scottish controlled Antioch.

They laid siege with a full stack that somehow got ahead of the rest. I thought "might as well make a stand here and do as much damage as I can, maybe take out a stack." So, I sallied forth with my mighty pikes and spear militia.

I didn't need to go out of the gates.

The AI stood in cannon tower range the entire time and didn't move. I leveled the whole stack without lifting a finger. In fact, I grabbed a drink, put the battle on x3 speed, and had a few giggles watching big piles of dirt fly into the air every few seconds.

A few turns later, I had decimated the entire Timurid invasion force. They laid siege every turn, sometimes with two extra stacks as reinforcements.

Timurids = All dead.
Scottish = 0 losses.

God I hope they fix this...

[Lusted]

The passive ai when you sally in sieges is the reason they delayed the patch.

[Agent Smith]

The passive ai when you sally in sieges is the reason they delayed the patch.

Are they planning on at least making the enemy move out of cannon range while waiting for you to sally forth? There has to be a set distance where they are scripted to wait.

It isn't even a question of them sitting there waiting for me to sally forth, it is more them sitting there getting pounded by cannons while waiting for me to sally forth.

[Agent Smith]

Well if you are going to exploit it like this don't whine about it. If you don't want the AI to sit there and get destroyed by cannon towers when you sally pull your goddamn troops off the walls and attack them like a real man!

True. The battle with the extra stacks as reinforcements I actually did attempt to get out at one point, but by the time I had made my way out their general was already dead and quite a of their troops were scattered about.

The fact is it probably wouldn't matter much. I'd at least, as a sensible sally-forther, keep some towers going while I come out and form a line. But, the passive AI would still get pounded as I worked my way out.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

It's been passive since RTW

[tex_-]

I had one battle as venice and sicily sieged florence. First they attacked with ram but I destoyed it than they attacked with infantry with ladder and I killed them all but their cavarly stayed outside the city and watched it all. They had no more siege weapons(only ladders, but cavalry cannot climb) and I had to wait untill the time runs out because cavalry wouldn't attack and I didn't want to sally out. Is this passive AI or what?

[Jambo]

There's another passive AI I've noticed on a couple of occasions in 1.2 with the Mongols (and probably the Timurids) whereby they sometimes go passive when trying to assault a city. It might be because the majority of their units are archer based and therefore don't qualify as melee infantry...

[Agent Smith]

There's another passive AI I've noticed on a couple of occasions in 1.2 with the Mongols (and probably the Timurids) whereby they sometimes go passive when trying to assault a city. It might be because the majority of their units are archer based and therefore don't qualify as melee infantry...

I think, for whatever reason, there is a large bias towards siege towers and ladders on the part of the AI, and without them they sometimes don't know what to do.

But, if they have rams, if they can get past the gate then they usually do aggressively try to pour through. I've seen the Mongols use foot archers a lot in carrying siege equipment to the walls.

[Bob the Insane]

There's another passive AI I've noticed on a couple of occasions in 1.2 with the Mongols (and probably the Timurids) whereby they sometimes go passive when trying to assault a city. It might be because the majority of their units are archer based and therefore don't qualify as melee infantry...

In my 1.02 (leaked) HRE game I held Jerusalim and despite the Mongles eating up the Egyptians and taking the rest of the Middle East i was not too worried as I was allied to them... Well then a big stack turned up and besieged me...

It was a General, heavy cavalry, HA, Heavy HA, archers and infantry (also archers) attacking... I have a full stack of crossbow militia, Town Militia and Spear Militia (no general) and I had Huge walls (no balista upgrades though)...

They built two siege towers and 8 rams... Their force was deployed as a large column and moved behind the towers. I deployed the bulk of my Town Militia on the walls where the towers where going and the spears inside the gates (for the horses). The crossbows manned the walls and activated the towers and did a lot of shooting...

Once the column moved forward and the first ram was destroyed the towers still moved forward but the non-archer cavalry then withdrew so quite considerable distance from the walls and formed up in a line... The HA when into circling mode and kept firing on the defenders...

The towers were not destroyed and the Town Militia was cut to peices by the mongel infantry (have you seen their stats?!?!?) and a few time the gate switched control and the line of horsemen would surge forward and then retire in sync with this...

[Agent Smith]

In my 1.02 (leaked) HRE game I held Jerusalim and despite the Mongles eating up the Egyptians and taking the rest of the Middle East i was not too worried as I was allied to them... Well then a big stack turned up and besieged me...

It was a General, heavy cavalry, HA, Heavy HA, archers and infantry (also archers) attacking... I have a full stack of crossbow militia, Town Militia and Spear Militia (no general) and I had Huge walls (no balista upgrades though)...

They built two siege towers and 8 rams... Their force was deployed as a large column and moved behind the towers. I deployed the bulk of my Town Militia on the walls where the towers where going and the spears inside the gates (for the horses). The crossbows manned the walls and activated the towers and did a lot of shooting...

Once the column moved forward and the first ram was destroyed the towers still moved forward but the non-archer cavalry then withdrew so quite considerable distance from the walls and formed up in a line... The HA when into circling mode and kept firing on the defenders...

The towers were not destroyed and the Town Militia was cut to peices by the mongel infantry (have you seen their stats?!?!?) and a few time the gate switched control and the line of horsemen would surge forward and then retire in sync with this...

That is good news!

So...did you win?

[Tyrac]

This is a very well known bug. Until they fix it the personal fix is simple. DO NOT USE IT!

I am sorry but the fact that you stood there and exploited this to allow them to die is sort of sad.

You went on 3 times speed and watched as you killed them.

Lets face it, you COULD go out and beat up retarded 13 year old girls for their money if you really wanted to.
Why don't you?
Because its wrong.

The fact is this AI cannot, and I repeat CANNOT stand up to you. Their have been at least 100 threads about this over the YEARS I have read these boards.

After the next patch and the next 5 or six Total War games it will STILL not be able to take you.

Get used to it and set personal rules about what you do.


Or go play chess vs a top level AI and get owned.



Oh and yes, I also hope they fix the Passive AI. Until then I will NEVER sally because it is cheating.

[Bob the Insane]

That is good news!

So...did you win?

umm... no...

Those archers and infantrymen archers of the mongels took the walls from my Town militia and then attacked my spearmen in the streets. They where then joining by all the Mongol cavalry who completely overwhelmed the spears and routed them. The remaining partial units made a last stand in the square and we did take half the mongol stack with us... But just to annoy me the mongels also exterminated the population! I had built a Catherdral there!! *&^%!!, an army barracks....

Those mongol infantry are nuts, attack and defense stats to put a footknight to shame plus they are archers and fight to almost the last man...

I did return with a large force to take Acre (the Mongols now hold all of the middle east) and I have just successfully defended the citadel from a full stack assault (with trebuchets and rocket launchers)...

I hold Nicea, Rodes and Crete so I am going to use them as a staging area for a second crusade. However I need to get the Poles and Danes off my back first (well just the Poles really, I already bloodied the Danes and took Hamburg for my troubles)...

Oh and yes, I also hope they fix the Passive AI. Until then I will NEVER sally because it is cheating.

I do sally, but usually when I intend to attack the enemy, more often in concert with a releaving army... Actually thinking on that in this game I am playing now, I did not have any issues with the enemy staying to close to the city in a sally, but then I have not gotten to gunpowder yet...

[Agent Smith]

This is a very well known bug. Until they fix it the personal fix is simple. DO NOT USE IT!

I am sorry but the fact that you stood there and exploited this to allow them to die is sort of sad.

You went on 3 times speed and watched as you killed them.

Lets face it, you COULD go out and beat up retarded 13 year old girls for their money if you really wanted to.
Why don't you?
Because its wrong.

The fact is this AI cannot, and I repeat CANNOT stand up to you. Their have been at least 100 threads about this over the YEARS I have read these boards.

After the next patch and the next 5 or six Total War games it will STILL not be able to take you.

Get used to it and set personal rules about what you do.


Or go play chess vs a top level AI and get owned.



Oh and yes, I also hope they fix the Passive AI. Until then I will NEVER sally because it is cheating.

Geez, calm down bucko.

Like I said, my problem is with them standing there in cannon range, not just standing there. If they back up a bit it at least forces me to come to them, and then there archers would have destroyed the approach of my pike and spear units with no missile support even if they DID stand there. In round one I just found it funny, but I also elaborated that I did sally forth in round two and used a few towers for protection, and by the time I set up my line they were already swiss cheese. This is the first time I've experienced this, so take a chill pill.

Some people here are so darn uptight.

[Agent Smith]

I do sally, but usually when I intend to attack the enemy, more often in concert with a releaving army... Actually thinking on that in this game I am playing now, I did not have any issues with the enemy staying to close to the city in a sally, but then I have not gotten to gunpowder yet...

I've never had this problem until cannon towers. In fact, I never had to fight a sally battle before the Timurid battle with cannon towers in the few months I've been playing. With standard towers and ballista towers, the standard waiting distance for the AI is out of range, so it isn't an issue. It is only when you get cannon towers that they seem to wait in the range of the towers.

[TinCow]

Please refrain from personal attacks. You are free to dislike the way the OP plays his game, but please express yourself in a respectful manner.

[Jambo]

I've never had this problem until cannon towers. In fact, I never had to fight a sally battle before the Timurid battle with cannon towers in the few months I've been playing. With standard towers and ballista towers, the standard waiting distance for the AI is out of range, so it isn't an issue. It is only when you get cannon towers that they seem to wait in the range of the towers.

You can mod this by the way. In config_ai_battle look for this line:

        <defend-sally-out>
        	<!-- reform to this amount times the tower range -->
        	<tower-range-scale>1.5</tower-range-scale>
        </defend-sally-out>

Just increase the range.

[Agent Smith]

You can mod this by the way. In config_ai_battle look for this line:

        <defend-sally-out>
        	<!-- reform to this amount times the tower range -->
        	<tower-range-scale>1.5</tower-range-scale>
        </defend-sally-out>

Just increase the range.

Very excellent. That fixes just about everything is this regard. Thanks!

[craziii]

from what lusted said, that would be the last mojor bug squash right? 1.2 is worth the 600+ MB download.

[Sentinel]

This problem is not just with Cannon towers but also to a lesser extent with normal arrow towers.

One of my settlements was besieged by a full stack army. I only had a small garrison of 1 town militia at the gates and 1 peasant archer on the walls. Since I had managed to get a half stack relief force next to the attackers, I sallied forth with the garrison.

Initially the AI aligned its army parallel to the walls, but as my relief force approached its right flank it turned its whole army to face it.

Since it was now perpendicular to the walls its left flank was in range of the archers (who soon ran out of arrows) and towers.

Whilst I was busy (slowly) arranging my forces into the neatest, straightest battle formation in the history of warfare, prior to attacking, the towers killed half the AI army.

Every time the unit on the AI left flank was killed by the towers the AI rearranged its force and replaced it will a fresh one for killing. This continued until its force was so depleted that the line was not wide enough to be in range of the towers. At that time I decided that my army line was at last straight enough and was ready to get to work.

The map had plenty of room for the AI army to align itself in any direction and still stay out of range of the towers, but it didn’t, it just sat there and got slaughtered.

With respect to setting personal rules so as not to exploit the AI weaknesses I had few options.

To arrange my force so the AI did not have to turn its force, but thereby accepting a less favourable attack position that did not make effective use terrain and higher ground?

To rush into battle without fully arranging my force to best advantage so the AI army would not suffer too many losses from the towers?

Should I act as a less effective General and make deliberate tactical mistakes to compensate for the AI stupidity. This is the type of Chivalry that only occurs in Hollywood movies. Somehow in real life I don’t believe that when your battlefield opponent drops his sword you would suspend the fighting to allow him to pick it up again.

All’s fair in love and totalwar.


The AI already has methods to prevent this situation arising (some mentioned in previous posts above). On the normal non-siege battlefield when you attack using a larger force, the AI assumes a defensive tactic. It chooses a position on the edge of the map, usually on high ground in one of the corners. If the AI used this script for sallying out battles, then all the problems with towers would be solved. It should just assume that you are the attacker when sallying (which you are) and adopt a defensive stance.
The only time it should position itself close to and parallel to the walls is when it has superior numbers AND has siege equipment AND is prepared to use it.

[Bob the Insane]

Continuing my example above I have been holding the citadel at Acre for 6 turns now and have been either besieged or assaulted every turn (so 3 assaults so far). One good observation is that the stacks the AI mongols are sending are very balanced, half infantry/archers and half a mix of HA and heavy cavalry plus trebuchets and rcoket launchers. The AI seems good at keeping it's distance from the walls with non-archer units until there is a breach.

I have noticed one issue though, as it penetrates the rings of walls and I fall back to the next layer of defense it can be pretty slow in deciding what to do next. After creating a breach and rushing troops in to take that ring it will leave troops inside that ring while it slowly brings up it's siege engines (catapults or rams or ladders) and it leaves troops under the towers while it does this.

I have to say using 1.02 (leaked) it has been at least acting in a competent manner (when assaulting) and they are improving the AI yet more for the actual release of the patch so they say...

Given these examples I think tonight I will setup some custom battles with sieges and western armies (less archers) just to see what it does...