View Poll Results: Medieval Generals Bracket

Voters
39. This poll is closed
  • Genghis Khan

    35 89.74%
  • Jan Zizka

    11 28.21%
  • Edward of Woodstock (The Black Prince)

    19 48.72%
  • Saladin

    25 64.10%
  • Richard the 'Lionheart'

    18 46.15%
  • Belisarius

    22 56.41%
  • Khalid ibn al-Walid

    13 33.33%
  • Subutai

    22 56.41%
  • Frederick Barbarossa

    21 53.85%
  • Vanislaw Jangellio

    5 12.82%
  • Charles the Bold

    2 5.13%
  • William the Conqueror

    14 35.90%
  • Alexander Nevskij

    15 38.46%
  • Betrand du Guesclin

    7 17.95%
  • Charlemange

    20 51.28%
  • Nur-al-Din

    5 12.82%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

  1. #1
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Eye of the Hurricane (FL)
    Posts
    3,372

    Default Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    The Medieval Bracket is here with your list of suggested generals

    Rules
    No longbows, no broadswords
    There are 16 generals to be offered.
    You vote for eight to continue on.
    I am trusting that you will honor this system of voting for eight.
    Choose your favorites.
    This poll will be open for 7 days.
    Last edited by Marshal Murat; 05-01-2007 at 02:52.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  2. #2
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    The dark side
    Posts
    5,383

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Damn, I accidentally voted 7 , crap. Sorry
    Under construction...

    "In countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Norway, there is no separation of church and state." - HoreTore

  3. #3

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Donde esta El Cid???
    I support Israel

  4. #4
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    2,604

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo_H
    Donde esta El Cid???
    Yes, where is Rodrigo Diaz in this selection? The man was never defeated in battle!
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

    Idealism is masturbation, but unlike real masturbation idealism actually makes one blind. - Fragony

    Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)

  5. #5
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,223

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Quote Originally Posted by Spino
    Yes, where is Rodrigo Diaz in this selection? The man was never defeated in battle!
    Don't blame me. I was one of those asking for his inclusion.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  6. #6
    Imperialist Brit Member Orb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,751

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Seriously lacking:

    Robert Guiscard and Roger of Sicily, both, in my opinion, much better generals and politicians than William the 'Conqueror', who was defeated by his own son (Curthose) in Normandy. Alexius (Byzantine emperor) was 'terrified of the Duke (Guiscard)' and even payed the Holy Roman Emperor to invade Rome to try and take Guiscard out of the war (Guiscard did, in fact, defeat the Holy Roman Emperor, but his son, after several victories, was eventually defeated by Alexius).

    Duqaq of Damascus for a leader? Where is Alfred the Great? Where is Bohemond, who essentially forced through the First Crusade (and also inflicted the aforementioned defeats on Alexius before one error)?

    How about the first 'Norman' leader (is it Rollo), who managed to get the French king to give away a large amount of his territory?

    :(

    Too much movie-choice :(


    'My intelligence is not just insulted, it's looking for revenge with a gun and no mercy. ' - Frogbeastegg

    SERA NIMIS VITA EST CRASTINA VIVE HODIE

    The life of tomorrow is too late - live today!

  7. #7
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,223

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    I agree. William of Normandy was never a serious contender for me. He had the advantage of taking on Harold when Harold was in the midst of a dynastic squabble/viking invasion. Harold then turned around and got back down to the South in time to come within an ace of besting (or forcing a draw and possible retreat on) William at Hastings.

    That represents good strategic planning on William's part -- he had the timing almost perfect -- but tactically it was not so much of a much.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  8. #8
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Eye of the Hurricane (FL)
    Posts
    3,372

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Were the asked for?

    Ah, I see them now.

    Sorry to those who were hoping for El Cid, a Grevious error on my part. Next round some more generals will be thrown into the mix.
    Last edited by Marshal Murat; 05-02-2007 at 21:22.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Well aside from the fact that winning at Hastings took intelligent leadership even in spite of Harold Godwinson having made the mistake of marching south too fast, during his lifetime William the Bastard went from being a duke with negligible authority, to a duke with extremely strong authority, to being king of the most advanced state in Latin Christendom. He didn't achieve this by luck- it was only possible because he excelled at the style of warfare which was typical in that era, especially of private conflict.
    Last edited by Furious Mental; 05-05-2007 at 19:37.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Gah! How come one of Khalud ibn al-Walid, one of the best generals of this bracket is actually losing to the likes of Barbarossa and Richard the Lionheart? Please do show me anything that they did that would rival the battle of Walaja or the conquest of Iraq and Syria in three years.

    Friendship, Fun & Honour!

    "The Prussian army always attacks."
    -Frederick the Great

  11. #11
    Imperialist Brit Member Orb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,751

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Quote Originally Posted by AggonyDuck
    Gah! How come one of Khalud ibn al-Walid, one of the best generals of this bracket is actually losing to the likes of Barbarossa and Richard the Lionheart? Please do show me anything that they did that would rival the battle of Walaja or the conquest of Iraq and Syria in three years.

    They managed to get better press in the Western World later.


    'My intelligence is not just insulted, it's looking for revenge with a gun and no mercy. ' - Frogbeastegg

    SERA NIMIS VITA EST CRASTINA VIVE HODIE

    The life of tomorrow is too late - live today!

  12. #12
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,223

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Quote Originally Posted by Furious Mental
    Well aside from the fact that winning at Hastings took intelligent leadership even in spite of Harold Godwinson having made the mistake of marching south too fast, during his lifetime William the Bastard went from being a duke with negligible authority, to a duke with extremely strong authority, to being king of the most advanced state in Latin Christendom. He didn't achieve this by luck- it was only possible because he excelled at the style of warfare which was typical in that era, especially of private conflict.
    True enough, but my read of the histories doesn't show much in the way of tactical brilliance on his part at all. Competent probably, but not the artist some of the others on the list are.

    To his credit, he was a wonderful politician and excellent strategist. He created conditions where he had the advantage going in -- a not unimportant skill. His pacification of England was stolidly effective and almost unstoppable once set into motion. I just don't know that I'd rate it as good Generaling.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  13. #13

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Well I don't see how these qualities can really be separated. It seems that modern observers often assess medieval leaders out of context. Nowadays we have a clear division between political leaders, strategic leaders and tactical leaders. Simple fact is that that division did not exist in William I's time. A leader was either good at war or bad at it. William I was exceptionally good at it although not in the same sense as others. The same thing can be said about other leaders on there. Why was Bertrand du Guesclin so effective? In large part because as an ex-routier he knew how best to assemble the free companies into a fighting force for the French crown or its allies rather than against it. To take the example of another famous figure in English history, one can equally well point out that for all his tactical successes the Black Prince was, in the final analysis, essentially a failure in terms of war leadership. He threw away the fruits of numerous brilliantly executed English victories, including his own at Poitiers and Najera, because he was a poor diplomat, a poor judge of other men, and in general had a very narrow and simple conception of geopolitics.
    - Thanks, it would seem, to a personal dislike of the man, he did nothing to help his Castilian ally Pedro the Cruel resist the Franco-Aragonese effort to install the pretender Henry Trastamara, being so lazy as to not even bother making a token effort to stop English and Gascon captains join du Guesclin's proxy army, the Gente Blanca.
    - As a consequence when he did help Pedro the Cruel he had no choice but to raise another large army at enormous cost to himself, in the very much false belief that Pedro intended to ultimately pay for the war.
    - This left him in a mountain of debt which made him totally unable (and unwilling) to stop Henry Trastamara invading Castile yet again and putting Pedro's reign (and life) very much to an end.
    - More importantly, in conjunction with his refusal to substantially cut down the costs of his extravagant household, it forced him to levy harsh taxes on Aquitaine in contradiction of ancient charters and liberties, which precipitated the appeal of numerous nobles and communities in territories ceded under the Treaty of Bretigny to Charles V, i.e. provided the casus belli for the French reoccupation of much of English Aquitaine, which being bankrupt and invalid he was unable to seriously resist.
    - Unlike his father (who was still far too lazy in dealing with them) the Black Prince had absolutely no conception of the damage which the free companies were doing to the interests of Edward III and himself, that is, that by wreaking havoc in France they prevented the French crown raising the money to pay for John II's ransom, made the French political community implacably opposed to fulfilling the Treaty of Bretigny generally, created lasting hatred of the Anglo-Gascons in many areas ceded to him (which were the first to rebel against him when hostilities recommenced), and provided the impetus for the French diverting the taille to military expenditure (which was the financial basis for their successful invasion of Aquitaine in the 1370's).

    In these respects he was not unique. All the other English leaders of his time had a limited strategy, that is, they marched all over France destroying as much as they could in the hope of terrorising the French body politic into handing over the French crown, or at least submitting to a favourable political settlement. This method could have been successful since it did ultimately gain them the extremely favourable Treaty of Bretigny. Unfortunately for them their limited strategic vision left them unable to really understand how seriously their own subjects, subordinates or even they themselves were sabotaging the treaty, and when it did become a dead letter they showed themselves incapable of coming up with a strategy to replace the chevauchee, which had already been showing its age in 1359. However the Black Prince was clearly the most inept of them- Edward III, John Chandos and Henry de Grosmont at least made some (totally inadequate) efforts to make the treaty function. I guess this all depends on whether or not we are measuring success in terms of how many people a leader killed or how well they advanced the interests of their state. Personally I view William I as a better war leader than the Black Prince because both of them essentially determined their fate through war, but when William I died he had gained the English crown and left it in a stronger position than when he took it, whereas when the Black Prince died he was bankrupt and much of his domain would soon be French, and much of the blame for that can be laid squarely at his own doorstep. Yet clearly I am in the minority and I suspect it is because most people concentrate on how the Black Prince succeeded at Poitiers and Najera rather than how he (although by no means single-handedly) rendered them both totally futile.
    Last edited by Furious Mental; 05-07-2007 at 14:28.

  14. #14
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,223

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Bit of a judgement call Furious.

    The Black Prince, and much of the leadership of the English in that stretch, were -- at best -- a bit limited in strategic vision.

    I guess the point of departure is where you draw the line between military strategy and political leadership. I choose to draw it by placing the large scale movements/training/logistics/theme of a campaign as "strategy," while viewing diplomatic negotiations & manipulation/trade agreements/cultural conversion efforts as "political" leadership (and not in consideration for me in this contest). If you draw that line differently, you could end up with an entirely different POV.

    I didn't vote for Edward either, seeing in him some of the limitations I also ascribe to Hannibal Barca.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  15. #15

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Didn't Subutai run all or most of Ghengis Khan's battles?

  16. #16
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: Summer Campaign-Medieval Bracket

    Who is ' Vanislaw Jangellio' ?

    Perhaps Wladyslaw Jagiello ?

    Personally I doubt any Lithuanian or Polish commander of that period is worth a place in the contest. Only from the time of Jan Tarnowski the great period of the Polish Military beginns - before that there were only unknown commanders and warrior kings.



    On the other hand the poll lacks Hungarian ingenious leader Janos Hunyadi and Albanian Skandenberg - both wonderful commanders.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO