Faction Thread 3: Skaven

[Bwian]

Some problems here with these units until we are able to vary the scale of units. Clanrats and slaves need to be smaller than human normal, whilst Rat Ogres would be larger. I am assuming we will be able to accomplish this with the work currentl ongoing on animations looking very promising.

Unit:

1) Clanrat Slaves

2) Clanrats

3) Storm Vermin

4) Night Runner

5) Poisoned Wind Globadiers

6) Gutter Runner

7) Warplock Jezzails

8) Plague Monk

9) Rat Ogre

10) Warp Lightning Cannon

These guys, as with quite afew of the Warhammer factions seem quite light in the missile weapon department. I am not sure why, but there is no mention of simple missile weapons here of the bow and arrow type! Cause of much discussion in my wargaming days.....

[Bob the Spork]

If you can do the dire wolves you mention in the Vampire Counts thread, then you can do the skaven's giant rats. Can't have a skaven army without a few giant rats.

[Bwian]

Scaling of skeletons and new animations are needed for both...but yes. They can be done!

I also thought of doing ordinary rat swarms in the same way as the tomb swarms. I have been experimenting with these by just putting a bunch of really small models onto a unit. They actually look quite good. They could be improved with careful animation

[Meneldil]

I know this isn't doable with MTW2 engine, but having Screaming Bells on a battlefield would have been great

As for the Warplock Jezzails, how do you plan to make them ? Have them working as regular handgunners ?

[uanime5]

I'm guessing the Skaven will use large numbers of weak troops to overwhelm their opponents.

Also will they have more powerful / cheaper agents, such as spys and assassins; and should the generals all have the night fighter trait (assuming it can be coded)?

[Bob the Spork]

Screaming bell could possibly be done. Maybe something along the lines of the big Standard thing that Milan has? I think it's Milan, but maybe Venice? One of them. As in, it has a bodyguard of stormvermin and a morale boost effect around it to represent a Gray Seer being there.

[Casuir]

They're not in the 6th edition so thats probably why Bwian hasnt got them in there, they are possible though if he wants to include them. Warpfire throwers could also be possible looking at the kingdoms expansion, not sure about the doomwheel.

[Bwian]

Flamethrowers were extremely possible in RTW, just by changing properties on the missile and generating a particle trail. Unless they have really changed things, I don;t think there is a need to have the expansion just to do this

I can look at the possibility of things like the Screaming Bell ... it would make an impressive sight on the battlefield.

Also...as to unit 'balance' I envisage the Skaven as having large numbers of cheap units early on, which would make them a dangerous force in the early game. they lack quantities of heavy troops....so as the other factions develop, they will find themselves increasingly pressured. Development of firearms and heavy weapons will be their necessary survival strategy, along with the reliance on assasins and spies to undermine the enemy. Storm out, fight hard early on, and hang on! They would also have to rely on multiple waves of armies to wear down enemy troops who would take longer to replace losses. Battles of attrition would be the key. I think they could be a very interesting faction to play!

[uanime5]

The Skaven may also need to develop something to combat heavy cavelry, which can tear through non-spear infantry with ease.

[Bwian]

Storm Vermin armed with spears to hold up cavalry, and Rat Ogres to tear them into mincemeat. When they run, pick off the survivors with warplock fire.

[Bob the Spork]

Yes. I think Stormvermin, Rat Ogres and Jezzails should be the anti heavy cavalry ones. All of them can take them on in the game.

[uanime5]

Will there be one Skaven faction or will there be four (representing the 4 great clans)?

[Bwian]

Just the one faction. I don't thikn there is enough variation in the clans to make it worth the effort, and it would congest the map some more!

Chaos is only getting multiple factions because there is room up there on the map, and the different Gods bring different units and play-styles.

[alexader]

Bwian ,what do you think about the Empire,how you will me her?I'm talking about the coulors,will be one faction with individual colours from region to region,is this possible?

[Casuir]

Skaven settlements are pretty spread out, it'll probably end up like you're playing seperate factions with a central economy.

[DrZoidberg]

Will there be one Skaven faction or will there be four (representing the 4 great clans)?

In the Warhammer world they are ruled by the Council of Thirteen, (but in practice eleven). Even though the union is pretty fragile and marred by constant rivalry and in-fighting, it would be more true to both Warhammer and playability if they wheren't seperate. They are seperate both culturally and politically, but not in such a way as to effect the game in any way.

[Meneldil]

Just the one faction. I don't thikn there is enough variation in the clans to make it worth the effort, and it would congest the map some more!

Chaos is only getting multiple factions because there is room up there on the map, and the different Gods bring different units and play-styles.

Hum, speaking of that, how are you going to handle Skavens' cities ? From what I know, apart Skavenblight, they mainly live under human cities. I think it could be a nice addition to play as a given skaven clan, and to have to unify the clans. Other clans could be represented as rebel factions.

[DrZoidberg]

Hum, speaking of that, how are you going to handle Skavens' cities ? From what I know, apart Skavenblight, they mainly live under human cities. I think it could be a nice addition to play as a given skaven clan, and to have to unify the clans. Other clans could be represented as rebel factions.

It shouldn't be a problem. If the Skavens conquer another races city then it's their's no matter if they chose to live under it. It's who ever controls the above ground who is the ruler, right? Even in Warhammer.

[Casuir]

They have other settlements, Hell pit, foul peak, black chasm are a few, theres probably more.

[Detlef]

Just a thought, but isn't it better to save Skaven for the add-on? Because of the Greek Firethrower? You know, M2TW: Kingdoms (of which I haven't seen any news article on this site (?)

[Bwian]

Unless they took something fundamental out for the game from RTW, flamethrowers are already possible. Made 'em for RTW.

The ballistas and catapults can still fire flaming projectiles, and troops still burn if they hit ... and this burn code is what the thing uses to work. Add in a simple projectile to make the 'hit' part, add a suitable particle trail ... and you have a flame gun. The add-on may make this prettier....but it isn't essential.

I am dubious about making a mod specifically for the add-on, sine not everyone buys the add-ons. BI gave graphical improvements, scorpion carts ( which I turned into tanks ) and these were good. IF hte add-on brings more things we can use ....like..say...chariots, then I would consider migrating the mod over. Otherwise...we will carry on, and see what the add-on brings us.

[Detlef]

oke, well good luck with the mod ^^

[Jargon]

Anyone thought about who the starting generals for Skaven should be? From the meager material iv’e read up on, I think there are three possibilities:

Option One: Council Rule

You actually play selected members of the Council of Thirteen. It is run by the Seerlord, and all the major clans are represented. I am against this idea, as the Council doesn’t do the actual military work, they send other people out to do it for them. They should remain in the shadows.

Faction Leader: Lord Kritslik the Seerlord
Lord Paskrit, Warlord-General of all Skavendom
Lord Sneek, Lord of Decay, Nightlord of Clan Eshin
Arch Plaguelord Nurglitch of Clan Pestilens
Lord Verminkin, Packlord of Clan Moulder
Lord Morskittar-Lord Warlock of Clan Skryre

Option Two: Skaven Characters Rule

The characters from the table top game become the generals. I think this is the preferred option as the characters are much more fleshed out and will be recognizable to Skaven players. I used Lord Paskrit to tie the characters together because he has the title of Warlord-General of all Skavendom, and at least is a member of the Council.

I would like to say that this option will allow them to receive noble/guild missions addressed from the Council Of Thirteen, but how missions will be implemented is still being debated.

Faction Leader: Lord Paskrit, Warlord-General of all Skavendom
Ikit Claw, Chief Warlock Clan Skryre
Lord Skrolk, Plaguelord of Clans Pestilens
Warlord Queek Head Taker
Throt the Unclean
Grey Seer Thanquol & Boneripper (if not used as an agent)

Option Three: One Clan Rule

Following the discussion taking place in Vampire Counts, another possibility is to have your generals from just one clan. Clan Skyre seems the strongest and most interesting option. Personally I would go for Option 2.

Faction Leader: Lord Morskittar-Lord Warlock of Clan Skryre
Ikit Claw, Chief Warlock Clan Skryre
Grey Seer Thanquol & Boneripper
Other Skyre characters here…

[DrZoidberg]

We could have a combination. The council of thirteen is a govorning body of extreme intrigues and backstabbing politics. One member is likely to be more dominant than the others.

We could have the council of thirteen but have the "faction leader" as the "most dominant council member". We could have have "council member" as a generals trait, "This character sits on the council of thirteen who together rule all Skavendom. This gives him immense power and authority +3 to authority +2 to dread".

This solution would be pretty sweet because 11 members of the council is warlords and we have no Warhammer story conflicts in having them run around leading armies. It's members are not permanently in Skavenblight, all they do is attend meetings at intervals, or send emissaries in their place if they're tied up.

[Jargon]

It will be difficult to have a combination, as there only so many generals each faction will start with. Would you select the council members as generals over characters which can actually be fielded in a Skaven table top game? I assume each faction wouldn't have more than five-six starting generals, but I may be wrong on this, and maybe Bwian is willing to add 7-10 characters per faction. There certainly isnt a lack of characters to use in the Warhammer world.

The Council of Thirteen list:

Seat One- Lord Kritslik the Seerlord
Seat Two- Greylord Skrisnik-Warlord and Seer of Clan Skrisnik
Seat Three-Lord Sneek, Lord of Decay, Nightlord of Clan Eshin
Seat Four- Lord Paskrit, Warlord-General of all Skavendom
Seat Five- Lord Kratch Doomclaw-Clan Warlord of Clan Rictus
Seat Six- Lord Gnawdwell-Clan Warlord of Clan Mors
Seat Seven-Lord Vittrik
Seat Eight- Arch Plaguelord Nurglitch of Clan Pestilens
Seat Nine- Lord Verminkin, Packlord of Clan Moulder
Seat Ten- Lord Azarskittar-Greylord of the Southlands
Seat Eleven-Lord Burr-Keeper of the Temple
Seat Twelve-Lord Morskittar-Lord Warlock of Clan Skryre

Lord Kritslik and Lord Morskittar both have veto powers, and I think are the two most powerful Council members. Maybe combine the two of them with normal generals like Ikit Claw, Lord Skrolk, Warlord Queek Head Taker and Throt the Unclean. You would therefore be the 'head' of the Skaven as the Seerlord, with famous generals under you. But that would mean only one major clan leader would be represented, which is a bit strange.

Maybe, get rid of Throt the Unclean, and have the Seerlord, the four clan leaders, Ikit Claw, Lord Skrolk and Warlord Queek Head Taker as the starting generals, for a total of 8 characters. Five Council members and three of their most famous generals. Is that too many, or just right? Any new generals spawned would be at the same level as Ikit, Skrolk and Queek, and have to work their way up the food chain.

Having Council Member is a great idea for a trait. There are lots of other interesting titles that can be used, such as Seer, Seerlord, Plaguelord, Packlord, Lord Warlock, Warlord, Nightlord, Lord of Decay. Is there a way that only one person can have a trait like Nightlord or Plaguelord at any one time, and once they die the trait goes back onto the market for someone else to pick up? Lots of interesting stats and options to play with here

[Jargon]

Visit here for a biography of each of the council members: http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=19404&st=15

I just read this:

The members of the Council are known as the Lords of Decay.

Lord of Decay sounds a much cooler trait than "council member", with the description and bonuses you posted above DrZoidberg.

[DrZoidberg]

Membership on the council is nothing permanent and they come and go regularly and suddenly. It's only the represantative of the Grey Seers that stick around but the army books hint on that even they get knocked off now and again if they start meddling too much in the politics.

So I don't really see any problems. The only problem as I see it is the heritage and the family tree. It's more like the Soviet Kremlin or Peoples Congress of China where heritage means nothing. Only contacts.

We could simply rename it, ("political affiliations" or something) but would that work for only one faction?

[Cavalyn]

Heya, just noticed your mod here and thought id offer any help I can. Not sure, you may already be in control of this. But I have the army books for High Elves and Skaven (More useful at this point). So if there is anything you would like to know, feel free to email me. Please actually email me lol, much easier than me checking this every now and then.

Please dont email for silly reasons or to annoy me lol.

Cavartiash@hotmail.co.uk

[Jargon]

Hey Cavalyn, thanks for the offer. What would be more useful for the discussion is for people like yourself to read what has already been brought up and make corrections or contribute new ideas. We can't email you questions for areas or ideas we havn't even thought to think of. The main issue is trying to bottle the Warhammer world into the MTW2 system.

Dr Zoidberg, I understand the heritage problem you are talking about, and was thinking of the possibilites today. It will be a problem for a lot of factions that dont give birth normally or have normal family lines, like Chaos and Tomb Kings, and so i'm sure a more neutral message will take the place of "Your New Son is Born." Your idea of 'political affiliation' sounds appropriate.

For Skaven, could all the starting generals who are Lords of Decay be the children of the Lord Seer? I think there is a max of 4 male children per faction leader, which works out nicely for the four clans. That way, the Seer can make any one of the clan leaders his heir, which I suppose makes sense.

What happens in MTW2 when every member of the royal family dies? Does it switch to a general, or does the game end?

[DrZoidberg]

What happens in MTW2 when every member of the royal family dies? Does it switch to a general, or does the game end?

It is also known as "having your ass handed to you". In MTW2, (and all the TW games if I'm not mistaken) you are always playing a family and not a country. Even if you've lost all your territories. As long as you have family members still alive you can still play.