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Thread: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

  1. #31

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    Visit here for a biography of each of the council members: http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=19404&st=15
    Thats not an official gw site so anything from it should be taken with a pinch of salt. It also openly discuss's and has members offering pirating gw material which is an area we should be steering well clear of.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Hey Cavalyn, thanks for the offer. What would be more useful for the discussion is for people like yourself to read what has already been brought up and make corrections or contribute new ideas. We can't email you questions for areas or ideas we havn't even thought to think of. The main issue is trying to bottle the Warhammer world into the MTW2 system.

    Dr Zoidberg, I understand the heritage problem you are talking about, and was thinking of the possibilites today. It will be a problem for a lot of factions that dont give birth normally or have normal family lines, like Chaos and Tomb Kings, and so i'm sure a more neutral message will take the place of "Your New Son is Born." Your idea of 'political affiliation' sounds appropriate.

    For Skaven, could all the starting generals who are Lords of Decay be the children of the Lord Seer? I think there is a max of 4 male children per faction leader, which works out nicely for the four clans. That way, the Seer can make any one of the clan leaders his heir, which I suppose makes sense.

    What happens in MTW2 when every member of the royal family dies? Does it switch to a general, or does the game end?

  3. #33

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Sorry for the double post.

    I would edit out the link for you Casuir but I can't. One of the books they use is meant to be have been uploaded legally online, I just assumed the information was from that. I thught I had found a treasure trove of information, but i'll now leave it to other people who can confrim it before making any more sugestions.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Had a look and it looks like the book is actually a fan-made piece for the first edition of wfrp. So no worries about it being pirated material, its usefulness as a source of background info though is nil. Theres a lot of fan-made stuff for the first edition of wfrp, some of its way off the bat.

    Far as official sources go theres children of the horned rat for wfrp second edition and the black librarys loathsome ratmen. First one has info on the council which doesnt match up with whats posted here.
    Last edited by Casuir; 05-14-2007 at 11:39.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    Dr Zoidberg, I understand the heritage problem you are talking about, and was thinking of the possibilites today. It will be a problem for a lot of factions that dont give birth normally or have normal family lines, like Chaos and Tomb Kings, and so i'm sure a more neutral message will take the place of "Your New Son is Born." Your idea of 'political affiliation' sounds appropriate.
    It is possible to change the name of events for different cultures. Perhaps it should be 'a new member of your clan has joined the council'. However the fact that a character has to be married to produce children will require a lot of creativity to change.

    For Skaven, could all the starting generals who are Lords of Decay be the children of the Lord Seer? I think there is a max of 4 male children per faction leader, which works out nicely for the four clans. That way, the Seer can make any one of the clan leaders his heir, which I suppose makes sense.
    This could easily be done. There is no limit to how extended the starting family can be, though the ages must be correct (so a son cannot be 3 years older than his father).

    What happens in MTW2 when every member of the royal family dies? Does it switch to a general, or does the game end?
    By Royal family do you mean the ruling family or every single family member? Only in the case of the latter is the facton wiped out (though I've heard that the HRE can elect a new faction leader, thus survive).
    Last edited by uanime5; 05-14-2007 at 12:26.
    4 Seasons (6 Empires battle for supremecy); 3.0 version
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  6. #36

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Cavalyn was nice enough to mail me some Skaven info and ideas. Thanks for the help mate. I asked him to paraphrase the rule book rather than copy it word for word, hopefully no rules have been broken.
    Cavalyn' email:
    The Skaven structure is hundreds of clans, most are warlord clans with
    slaves and clanrats and stormvermin ruled over by a warlord. There are four
    major clans. Clans Pestilens, clan Eshin, Clan Moulder and clan Skyre. These
    clans although allied, are by no means friendly. Might I suggest a system
    where each makor city can choose to (or castle) dedicate itself to one of
    them? So that most places are warlord Burrows, and make normal units. Where
    one or two can be Pestilen cities that can make normal and plague, then one
    for skyre etc.. and you choose and buy stuff for them. Like a guild in MTW2.
    I realise this may be really complex and you may want the basics done before
    all this complicated stuff, so fine. :)

    These clans are ruled over by the council of 13. Known as the "Thirteen
    Lords of Decay". Now in reality there are only 12 of them. 11 from major
    clans, so one from pestilens, eshin etc. then loads of normal warlord clans.
    The main Grey seer. And it is "symbolically" finished by the horned rat
    himself, the 13th member. I think this seat is probably left empty, maybe a
    grey seer interprets the horned rats ideas. :-P. It might be of interest to
    note, that it says the Grey seers and the council can declare a "sacred" war
    on a city or a skaven burrow... like a crusade. :-)

    Hmm titles and such. Im guessing you mean like "Good commander" but for
    skaven? Well I can suggest some ones lol.

    Packmaster - Morale bonus to Moulder troops / % decrease cost to Moulder
    beasts.
    Eshin Adept - % decrease costs on Agents
    Skyre Engineer (retinue) - Morale bonus or discount to skyre troops.
    Plague Priest (retinue) - decrease to population growth, but +5 to
    General hitpoints, and strength bonus too?, decrease chance of children
    maybe?
    Grey Seer advisor (retinue) - increase public order, +1 command. +1
    managment.
    Warpstone armour - (retinue/item) + to health.
    Warpstone blade (retinue) + to attack
    Favour of the Horned Rat - +1 command, increase chance of children,
    hitpoints?
    Favour of the council of 13 - " " "
    Emnity of Council - (maybe mission based like papacy?) Bad stuff, low
    public order, etc..
    StormVermin guard (retinue) - personal safety increase.

    All i can think of at the moment.

    As for agents. In the book "Skaven Slayer" by umm.. forget author name.
    But anyway. The skaven Greey seer Thanqual has dealings with humans
    directly, and says that many do so, to worm their way into society. Often
    draped in robes and such. Some rulers see the need to ally with them, for
    the good of their people. So Skaven could use diplomats that way. But they
    would look like cowled rats lol. This is all I can think of for you at the
    moment, there is little on extreme figures, like Snitch and other high grey
    seers... Also the doom wheel doesnt exist anymore. :-P, i think someone
    mentioned that somewhere.

    //finish

    The Sacred War sounds interesting, but I dare not touch the Crusades topic again. His ideas for traits, retinues, magic weapons and items all sound good to me.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Skaven clans regularly hire their troops out to other clans so I dont think limiting them to one city is good, their settlements are pretty spread out anyways. They are connected by the under-empire which we cant reproduce ingame.

    The crusade thing sorta matchs how the game works but we'd need to sort out how we're going to handle religion first. Priests primary function is to spread religion, callng jihad/crusades are a secondary ability. Besides it looks like an intra-skaven crusade, not sure how we'd handle that with one skaven faction.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Not sure how feasible it is to use guilds to represent the various clans but it struck me as an idea.

    In essence the building of a guild in one town stops other guilds to be build there as well. This could be used to allow particular factions to be represented.
    It should be possible to restrict the recruitment of specific units to specific buildings (like the Merchant Cavalry in M2TW).
    So in effect an Assassin's Guild for Skaven allows them to recruit Gutter Runners. Assassins are always present but the best and efficient ones are of Clan Eshin, this is represented by the bonus recruited assassins gain when built in a town that has an Assassin's Guild.

    In a similar way an Alchemist Guild will allow the recruitment of Warpflame Throwers and maybe Jezzails and Ratling Guns.

    The same theme could be applied to all other factions just that the recruitment is applied to other buildings.
    The biggest problem I see is that it requires more buildings (more like a subset for each faction) to restrict availability of certain units.

    As for Skaven family integrity I suggest you use HRE dynamics as its basic. In effect as long as one warlord exists he is the defacto leader. As often happens in M2TW generals are promoted to the faction itself so the pool of possible leaders is nearly endless.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Kesxex, the Guild buildings could even have a second purpose besides giving missions. According to the Heraldry modification over at TW Center, buildings, provinces and titles can all be linked together.

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84462
    PRIVY COUNCIL
    Each faction have its own privy council, the symbol of the charge is the same
    (shown in retinues) but the color and the name varies for every faction.
    This charges are transferrable to a character to another, but there are only
    one of the same type at a time, so cannot happen that you see 2 army general, or two first councillor. Like provincial titles they return available when the owner die.

    In general they are six, and they are:

    Faction Leader : Obviously titles given to the current faction leader

    Army Councillor : Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a castle
    without moving for 2 or more turns and the castle have a "garrison_quarters"

    First Councillor: Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a city
    without moving for 2 or more turns and the city have a "city hall"

    Treasure Concllr: Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a city
    without moving for 2 or more turns and the city have a "fairground"

    Security Concllr: Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a city
    without moving for 2 or more turns and the city have a "tavern"

    Kingdom Concllor: Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a city
    without moving for 2 or more turns and the city have reached
    and build the "farms+1"

    Each of these titles give the general various bonuses, depending on the role.
    A Councillor can even got a provincial title
    Now imagine instead of a Privy Council you have Lords of Decay. So Army Councilor, First Councilor, Security Councilor etc. become members of the Council of 13, with titles like Seerlord, Nightlord, Plaguelord, Lord Warlock, Grey lord etc.

    Notice that each Privy title is granted by a type of building? So the four clan titles could be linked to special clan buildings, such as the four guild buildings you described.

    Lets say you have an Eshin Assassin Hole guild building in a city. Lord Sneek, the Skaven general who starts the game with the title of Nightlord, eventually dies, and the Nightlord title becomes available. You move an untitled general to the city witht he Eshin building, and after three turns he gains the title Nightlord. Bonuses for him would be decreased cost for training agents, ambushing, night fighting, and maybe increased personal security. The benefits of being a Lord of Decay.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    I was wondering about tying the heraldy mod's layout with this as well. If you guys will be implementing, that'll just make it more awesome!

  11. #41

    Default Re: Re : Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil
    I know this isn't doable with MTW2 engine, but having Screaming Bells on a battlefield would have been great

    As for the Warplock Jezzails, how do you plan to make them ? Have them working as regular handgunners ?

    Screaming bells= The Holy Cross unit; a big cross on a cart with a retinue of armoured sergeant spearmen.

    Gives morale boost....Idk if it matters if you playing against muslim or orthodox faction, which would eventually tie in to religion, which is already a jumpy topic on this mod.

    Awesome mod btw, I was waiting for a long time to see someone put this one out, especially cause of The Holy Roman Empire already provides ALOT of units for The Empire...which just have to be recolored...

    But thats not for me to comment on

    Either way awesome work and hopefully I can play this soon! har har warhammer MOC...thank sigmar I didnt buy you ;P

  12. #42
    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Surely Venice & Milan's Carroccio standard would be more appropriate for the Screaming Bell? Considering it has a bell and all...

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  13. #43
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranaich
    Surely Venice & Milan's Carroccio standard would be more appropriate for the Screaming Bell? Considering it has a bell and all...
    Just so you know. I lobied pretty hard for just this solution at the beginning of making this mod. But that said, it's a funky unit and not really all that core, and if I remember correctly Bwian moved it off the list for which units will be included in the first release. I totally understand and agree. Step one should be to have anything playable, later we can do the wierd units.

    It's not just a bell, it's a bell with a grey seer at the top. So it'll need some work more than just a simple reskinning.
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  14. #44

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    And also ... for those who don't actually have to make these things work ... we do not have a completely reliable way of changing EVERY model. GOM's tool only works on human skeletons.

    KE has made a tool that does horse sand siege weapons .... which I have not had success adding new models from scratch with...

    And ultimately, the odd-ball stuff like this is waiting on KE and GOM finalising their toolsets and expanding them to cover more diverse skeletons and options. There is no point in expending the considerable effort needed to make the meshes and textures until we know there is a reliable process for getting them in game. Right noiw, I would rather focus on what we CAN do and make the vast bulk of achievable units that we need to make a playable game. After all.... this is not something that will see as much in game use as the average troops will ...so we build the units first that will get the most use. Then we fill in the gaps with the exotics as add-on releases and patches.
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  15. #45
    Member Member Taranaich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    It wasn't so much a campaign for the Screaming Bell to be included, just an observation that we have a bell tower in the game, though for the reasons stated I certainly understand why it's not on the current to-do list.

    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world, like blue mantles beneath the stars...
    Is fhearr fheuchainn na bhith san duil.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Hey, what about rat swarms?

  17. #47
    RnJ PR Officer Member Eufarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Hey Bwian do you have any screens of the Skaven?


  18. #48

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Not yet ...I am working on teh Greenskins at the moment, along with the Dwarves.

    Skaven are next on the list
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  19. #49
    RnJ PR Officer Member Eufarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    oh cool hey post some teh greenskins


  20. #50

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Ya, I can't wait to see some orcs or goblins or wolf riders. Oh geez, this is going to be awesome.

  21. #51

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    As everyone knows, 'teh greenskins' are ten times more vicious due to their innate inability to type accurately. Apparantly they have overly large fingers
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  22. #52
    RnJ PR Officer Member Eufarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    thanks mate


  23. #53

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    Dr Zoidberg, I understand the heritage problem you are talking about, and was thinking of the possibilites today. It will be a problem for a lot of factions that dont give birth normally or have normal family lines, like Chaos and Tomb Kings, and so i'm sure a more neutral message will take the place of "Your New Son is Born." Your idea of 'political affiliation' sounds appropriate.
    If the faction doesnt have natural succession through family you could just make them infertile to remove this aspect and then make use of repackaged "man of the hour" and "adoption" type triggers to recruit generals/heros more appropriately?

  24. #54

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    I don't know if you've already discounted this, and i couldn't see it earlier in the thread.

    Perhaps adapting the college of cardinals & the papacy to represent the council of 13?

  25. #55

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    #unfortunately, the behaviour and influence of the Papacy is too great, and too hardcoded to really be usable. IT would interfere too much with the game and give Skavens the wrong sort of power.

    There would have to be no other Christian factions at all, or you could end up with Orcs and High Elves sitting on the Skaven council....
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  26. #56
    Member Member essi2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    lol that wouldn't be very nice at all
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  27. #57

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Sorry, dont think i was clear. I meant just taking the papacy model and applying it only to the skaven, although not sure if possible?

    Horned One at the head issuing missions etc. anyway, just an idea :)

  28. #58

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    The Papacy thing is too hardcoded to be useful here. It only exists in one form, an that's too entrenched. You can't even use it as an outline I am afraid.
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  29. #59

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    Just liked to add a unit to possibly be added...

    Ratswarms.
    I saw your beautiful work on the Tomb Swarms so it should be easy to replace the insects with slightly bigger rats. I think..? :)

    They are known as "Tar pit" units.
    Their main job is to engage and hold elite units in place while you try to do away with the rest of your enemys army.
    These rats don't really do any significant amount of damage, but are unbreakable as in they'll fight to the rast man umm... rat.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Faction Thread 3: Skaven

    I must say that I personally think that having all of Skavendom in one faction is a Idea I don't like, it would end up being a poor presentation of Skaven. I would think that it would be better to have a relative obscure Skaven clan. Let me outline my idea of Skaven:

    Faction Leader: Warlord
    Faction Hair: Lord
    Ancillary characters: Grey Seer (+1 command +1 spotting distance -5 chance to assassinate character -5% cost of recruiting units), Warplock Engineer (+1 command during sieges +30 siege construction points -10% cost of recruiting siege equipment), Plague Priest (+1 piety +3 dread), Assassin (-15% chance to assassinate character -10% cost of recruiting Spy's and Assassins +3 Spotting distance), Trustworthy Bodyguard (+1 hit points -10% chance to assassinate character), Untrustworthy Bodyguard (+25% chance to assassinate character),

    Units:

    Tiny Burrow: Clanrat Slaves
    Burrow: Clanrat Slaves, Clanrats
    Large Burrow: Clanrat Slaves, Clanrats, Storm Vermin
    Tunnel Network: Clanrat Slaves, Clanrats +1, Storm Vermin, Generals Bodyguard
    Huge Tunnel Network: Clanrat Slaves, Clanrats +2, Storm Vermin +1, Generals Bodyguard,

    Beast Cages: Rat Swarms
    Small Laboratory: Rat Swarms, Giant Rats
    Mortuary: Rat Swarms, Giant Rats, Rat Ogres

    Eshin Den 1: Spy
    Eshin Den 2: Spy, Assassin, Night Runners
    Eshin Den 3: Spy, Assassin, Night Runners, Gutter Runners

    Workshop: Poisoned Wind Globadiers
    Skyre Laboratory: Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Warplock Jezzails
    Skyre Siege Works: Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Warplock Jezzails, Warp Lightning Cannon

    Shrine of the Horned Rat: Plague Priest,
    Altar of the Horned Rat: Plague Priest,
    Church of the Horned Rat: Plague Priest,
    Cathedral of the Horned Rat: Plague Priest, Plague Monks

    Anyways, this is how I vision Skaven would be best represented.

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