Multiple Hitpoints

[Zajuts149]

I've seen in earlier posts that there are different opinions about 2HP units like Generals Bodyguards and faction specific units like Hashishim(sp?) and Sherwood Archers. As I understand it, Generals also get aditional HP from good health, Battle scars and retinue(Shield- and Swordbearers). A small query about this: Do Character-added HP apply to every man in the unit, or just the General himself?

I've made the observation in my battles that a lot of units die easily. I'm sure this can be attributed to the Shield Bug. Hopefully the deathrate will go down when this is fixed.(Again, small query: Is this fixed in the leaked patch? Can someone verify?)

Yet, I got to think about Hitpoints on the units in the game. I think its a gamey technique that some special units have twice the amount of HP that regular units have. Still, I'm intrigued by the Idea that some units are harder to kill, due to training and will to fight. What would it be like if all units had multiple HP, but on a more scaled degree.
For instance, Generals BG: 6 HP, Specials: 5 HP, Elite: 4 HP. The rest: 3 HP.

I know this might open a can of worms, and one would have to recalculate kill numbers for every unit. Am I walking alone in the desert on this idea?

[Lusted]

Do Character-added HP apply to every man in the unit, or just the General himself?

Character only.

Again, small query: Is this fixed in the leaked patch? Can someone verify?

Yup it's definitely fixed.

I know this might open a can of worms, and one would have to recalculate kill numbers for every unit. Am I walking alone in the desert on this idea?

Giving units multiple hp screws with the balance of missile units. It might seem like a great way to reduce kill rates, but the system you propose would make missile units worthless, as units would be almost immune to the first few voleys fired at them.

[Eng]

Giving units multiple hp screws with the balance of missile units. It might seem like a great way to reduce kill rates, but the system you propose would make missile units worthless, as units would be almost immune to the first few voleys fired at them.

Then maybe u should double the missle damege if u double the hitpoints then it will take just the same time to kill units with missles

[atheotes]

Then maybe u should double the missle damege if u double the hitpoints then it will take just the same time to kill units with missles

Even with an increased missile damage, the max damage will only remove 1 hit point resulting in no kills in the first volley (unless two arrows hit the same person and both of them are not deflected)
But i do agree that it is kind of gamey to have multiple hitpoint generals ... and jedi generals it results in

[HoreTore]

Damn, I miss the old Kataphraktoi Jedi's of MTW.... Usually had to spend an entire army of turks to kill one...

[pike master]

most players like to have a few of those herioc units i think that seem to rather hard to kill.

[Martok]

Units with 2 HP are just way too overpowered. A General's BG unit was absolutely ridiculous because of it.

Damn, I miss the old Kataphraktoi Jedi's of MTW.... Usually had to spend an entire army of turks to kill one...

Really? Because I find that the "Jedi General" phenomenon is one of the relatively few things about that game that drives me nuts -- it's unfortunate that the only relatively safe way to kill a general is with a few well-placed crossbow bolts. I admit that for as much as MTW is still my favorite of the Total War titles overall, I'm glad it's the only one with the Jedi problem!

[Ciaran]

There´s also something else to consider, while it may not statistically matter whether to fight a unit with 60 men and one hitpoint, or one with 30 men and two hitpoints, you have to keep in mind that the smaller the unit the faster it gathers experience. Plus, the two hitpoints reduce the chance that a highly-skilled member of that unit gets killed. I´m not sure how M2TW handles this, but in MTW, the experience is recorded for every single man, not as an overall average.

[-Silent-Someguy]

Multiple HP units are powerful, but they are also very expensive. I dont think they are overly powerful, especially not the infantry ones. But gen BG is quite strong, which I think is good. Also having 'jedi' gens is better than when we didnt have them, for example in MTW/VI. In VI and MTW the general was simply the middle individual sprite in your unit, he had no special attributes at all, they died very easily from almost anything, bow shots etc. and this was very lame and made it alot harder to protect them and alot more luck was involved, you coul put a couple of longbow units on their gen unit and often he died fast. Therefore it was almost always necessary to have them in expensive units with the most armor. In M2TW you can put your gen in almost any unit and he wont die as often as in MTW (THough I always use a cav unit at least)

btw naffatun will take multiple HP units to pieces.

[sapi]

Actually, you've got things backwards - the jedi-generals were in MTW/VI but no longer exist...

[Zajuts149]

Thanks guys,

Hopefully the battle will turn out differently when the patch comes out. I've considered installing the leaked patch, but since it will involve reinstalling the game and a lot of modding that i must do again, I'll wait.

I'm in half a mind to reduce the BG HP, so that it makes sence to build more Cavalry. As it is, I rarely build any Knights in the game, as one usually get Mailed Knights as a reward early on, and on Crusade, you get the cheap, but superior Crusader Knights. One gets alomst too dependant on Generals, and they'll slaughter everything in the early game.

The Jedi Generals are almost ridiculous at times, but still there are stories of a lot of these exceptional single fighters who could best a multiple of enemies. Perhaps one solution would be to reduce the added HP for each step of battle scars from 2 to one.

BTW, what is the maximum amount of HP a general can have?

[Budwise]

There´s also something else to consider, while it may not statistically matter whether to fight a unit with 60 men and one hitpoint, or one with 30 men and two hitpoints, you have to keep in mind that the smaller the unit the faster it gathers experience. Plus, the two hitpoints reduce the chance that a highly-skilled member of that unit gets killed. I´m not sure how M2TW handles this, but in MTW, the experience is recorded for every single man, not as an overall average.

True, but its harder to wrap around a 60 unit squad instead of a 30 unit. Getting a wrap around effect will damaged the moral pretty major on the one being wrapped.

ANOTHER QUESTION that I haven't seen asked yet. If lets say I was using Sherwood archers and I had three men lose an HP point due to arrow fire or whatever and I win the battle. Does that individual three men always have 1 hp lost from then on or does it regenerate after the battle back to 2 hp max?

[Lusted]

ANOTHER QUESTION that I haven't seen asked yet. If lets say I was using Sherwood archers and I had three men lose an HP point due to arrow fire or whatever and I win the battle. Does that individual three men always have 1 hp lost from then on or does it regenerate after the battle back to 2 hp max?

Regenerates after battle as far as im aware.

[econ21]

Actually, you've got things backwards - the jedi-generals were in MTW/VI but no longer exist...

I've seen M2TW generals (esp. Kings) last quite a long time in a sea of my infantry. They do get extra HPs as they did in MTW/VI, but maybe less.

I'm not so bothered about the general having more HP, but agree with the other posters that the entire BG having 2HPs makes them overpowered (esp. with their ability to regenerate slain men between battles). I don't think BGs had 2HPs in MTW; indeed, I'm not sure they could regenerate slain men (I think you had to retrain them to get the unit back to strength). Those two changes made for jedi-bodyguards existing in RTW/M2TW where they did not in STW/MTW.

I know you can mod out the 2HP, but I guess the regeneration ability is hardcoded for generals's units?

[FactionHeir]

Well while they may have 2hp, they are only half strength (except if you got loads of personal security or are heir/leader) plus the regenerating ability works against you at high experience counts as new additions are added at experience 0 instead of at lowest of the group.

Besides, you can have 40 hp and a ballista shot will still kill you instantly.

[Bob the Insane]

Note that in the MTW engine each individual would only fight upto a maximum of three others at once, so even when completely surrounded the king was on facing three enemies which due to the stats each had little chance of hurting him, let alone doing it multiple times...

The 2HP bodyguards do not bother me as much in MT2W as they did in RTW. Maybe because the generals are less suicidal so you simple do not see the issue as much.

But in RTW you would often see the general's charging headlong in a formed up pike unit, smashing into it and breaking it up and then killing the rest of the unit (whom where now fight close up with swords rather than pikes). This was only possible because of the 2HP, any other cavalry units (pretty much) would have been devistated, but general's bodyguards could do it with no casualties...

[FactionHeir]

Well the non egyptian ones anyway. Egyptian chariot generals would get instagibbed against pikes.

[econ21]

The 2HP bodyguards do not bother me as much in MT2W as they did in RTW. Maybe because the generals are less suicidal so you simple do not see the issue as much.

True. One other reason may be that experience boosts stats less in M2TW than RTW (BGs could wrack up formidable levels of experience). Plus from a historical realism point of view, I find it easier to swallow the idea of elite medieval knights being uber whereas a Roman bodyguard unit doing more damage than all the Roman infantry just feels wrong.

With the 1.2 patch and its shield fix, however, bodyguards do see a marked step up in survivability over 1.0 and 1.1.

...the regenerating ability works against you at high experience counts as new additions are added at experience 0 instead of at lowest of the group.

Are you sure of that? Regular (non-bodyguard) replacements don't get added at 0 experience, do they?

[FactionHeir]

Yes I'm sure of that :p
Ever see your BG of 9 xp but 2 men regenerate back to 32 men but lose xp all the way down to 3 bronze chevrons?

As for normal troops retraining, those get the average group experience, so that say a 9 xp unit will always stay 9 xp after retraining and not drop down as in RTW

[econ21]

Yes I'm sure of that :

OK, off-topic, but is that a change from RTW? I am sure my RTW BGs acquired godly valour compared to my (never retrained) regulars. If it is a change, it's a good one.

[FactionHeir]

Well, it hasn't changed really. BG still work the same way as in RTW but retraining troops has been changed in M2TW.

[Foz]

Yes I'm sure of that :p
Ever see your BG of 9 xp but 2 men regenerate back to 32 men but lose xp all the way down to 3 bronze chevrons?

As for normal troops retraining, those get the average group experience, so that say a 9 xp unit will always stay 9 xp after retraining and not drop down as in RTW

I can't say I've seen that happen myself, but then again I'm not watching all my generals all the time to see what happens when they regenerate. Are you sure what you've noticed is not simply from healed bodyguards at the end of a battle though? The only time I can actually recall seeing my bodyguard XP go down is after a battle in which some of them where raised at the end of the battle (in which case the raised ones usually had poor kills, and presumably reinstating them to the group lowers its XP as a result). I only ask because it seems a bit odd that they would implement bodyguard replenishment differently than retraining, and it immediately occurred to me that the effect of end-of-battle healing could be confused with that of bodyguard replenishment, especially if you hadn't checked the general right after the battle or noticed that any of his company had been healed.

[FactionHeir]

100% sure on that. Try to deplete a bodyguard unit with high xp and check the chevrons after battle. Then leave him be for ~4 turns and check back on his xp.

[Husar]

With the 1.2 patch and its shield fix, however, bodyguards do see a marked step up in survivability over 1.0 and 1.1.

But it's balanced out by infantry getting an even bigger boost in survivability.
I think bodyguards are still quite strong, but once generals enter the fighting(they often stay behind their bodyguards, at least in cities), I'm very worried. Many of them die quite easily, especially against spears or other bodyguards. There may be this or that guy who has an insane amount of hitpoints, but by that time my generals are often rather old and close to their natural death anyway.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Erm the general's bodyguards should not fight. Ever. I remember in the RTW demo Hannibal's whole bodyguard was like 6 soldiers? That was plenty IMHO.

[Zajuts149]

Erm the general's bodyguards should not fight. Ever. I remember in the RTW demo Hannibal's whole bodyguard was like 6 soldiers? That was plenty IMHO.

Thank you! Of course! I'll half the Size of BG once more, and then we'll make the buggers eyes water :D
I like that. Hard to Kill Bodyguards, but with a unit size so small they'll only fight when it's absolutely necessary.

[pike master]

this is really odd. i have read the 1.2 stat sheets and they say the forlorn hope has only 1hp but i placed them up against a unit of scottish rabble and they cleaned the floor with them without loosing a single man.

usually even good units will take losses versus peasant units but this was surprising.

two hit points can make units pretty hard to kill. is this a coincidence or did they give the forlorn hope two hit points?

[Foz]

this is really odd. i have read the 1.2 stat sheets and they say the forlorn hope has only 1hp but i placed them up against a unit of scottish rabble and they cleaned the floor with them without loosing a single man.

usually even good units will take losses versus peasant units but this was surprising.

two hit points can make units pretty hard to kill. is this a coincidence or did they give the forlorn hope two hit points?

I just extracted the new file and looked, they still have 1 HP. They do still also have their high 17 attack though, so they may be swatting peasants so damn fast that the peasants don't get to swing much.

AFAIK the EDU file is identical in substance to the 1.1 and 1.0 versions. Every difference in vanilla 1.2 that anyone has noticed is due to a bug being fixed or AI aspects of the game being tweaked. This seems a smart plan on CA's part: they realize the things they have prioritized are also the ones modders can do nothing about. Given the balance in 1.2 we can hopefully count on 1.3 to deliver official stat changes to implement good balance. In the meantime, I recommend players look to the rebalance mods out there: they should be able to add the missing ingredient. With their rebalancing work, the game should feel very close to polished at this point.

For those of you who may not be aware, Lusted's LTC mod is one major rebalance mod, as is Carl's ProblemFixer. Lusted already has v1.2 files out, and Carl has said he is working on it and they should be ready soon (last I heard). Both come highly recommended.