Sci-Fi versus Fantasy

[doc_bean]

I'll have to disagree with you here. You see, Jon Snow never started off innocent; he was a bastard at court to begin with, hated by Catelyn and weighed down by the fact that he wasn't as full a child of his father's as, say, a Robb or a Bran (Bran's the kid with the powers of vision btw).

He was the ugly stepdaughter, an old cliche, he's also (at least at first) one the most one dimensional characters around. Probably the only character made to be likeable from the start.
I still feel like GM is combining two stories, one is a rather simplistic 'quest' story, the other is an intricate political story, which is the meat of most of the books i've read. The problem it creates is similar to something LOTR suffers from: in the end the efforts of nations/people/kings/whoever will matter very little and the fate is decided by a few lone heroes. Though GM might have a few surprises up his sleeve yet.

And that's really the key to what sets ASoIaF apart from, say, a Tolkien, a WoT, or even a Sword of Truth,

I hope you're not implying that SoT is the best of those series, because, while I don't really care about any of them much (LOTR is saved by having the grace to end it after three books, and thus saying a little more focused) the first book of SoT might just be the worst book i've ever read. I gave up trying to enjoy the book for what it was halfway through (or earlier) and finished it for a laugh. It's extremely badly paced, is incredibly inconsistent in it's own mythology, has a forced happy ending the makes no sense (the kids...), employs *several* deus ex machinas and has laughable characterisation. I'm still wondering how Goodkind ever got that published...

And then, of course, there's this (about Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister; it spoils some stuff from book 1 and 3 so beware)...

Hah, I've read worse spoilers, but I hadn't gotten to that point in book 3 yet. Ned Stark is one of the least likable characters IMO. Yes, he's a traditional good guy, but he's also stubborn and acts dumb just to save his honour.


I don't hold these 'chilches' against it though. My problem with the series is the slow pacing, and the Catelyn, Sansa (and a few others) chapters, my breaks from the series always tend to happen before those


Another series which I do love, Dune, starts off with a book that closely follows the traditional hero story, the main character is even called a Messiah at some point. But the little details, the way the story is told, and not-everything -turns-out alright attitude elevate it far above most books of the 'genre'. It *is* an old story, but it takes a good writer to turn it into something worth reading.

[The Wizard]

As said, not a whole lot is turning out right for the initial characters; or would you argue with me that everything is going fine for House Stark (gauging where you're at, I'd tell you that it gets worse)? None of the main characters has, in any way, been spared anything. All of them have been physically, if not emotionally, mauled multiple times, and if I know GRRM's style it'll only get worse.

I hope you're not implying that SoT is the best of those series

Don't worry. I'm not. One of the greatest wastes of trees in human memory if you ask me. Moral celery, bouncing spaghetti and lemmings of discord, indeed.

[Papewaio]

Song of Fire and Ice has all the standard fare:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The whole Stark family is pretty much orphaned pretty quick. If you started reading from the second book it would be the same situation as most other fantasies, young orphans with special powers, abilities, insight, honour, position on a quest to restore the right person to the throne. The heroes are from a relatively honourable & farming nobility. There father dies pretty quickly in the piece. There are elements of magic and prophecy. The primary difference is that the books make the greatest evil, humans... much like the Aliens movies... most fantasy books make evil an elemental form... even then there are more mystical evil elements being introduced into the series.

So IMDHO Song of Fire and Ice sets a normal pastoral scene of relatively nice nobles (much like Frodo is in the shire) who have external events thrust on them (the Lancasters) while they the Starks have magical connections (the wolves and abilities) that may or may not help them in the long run. The major difference is the body count and more explicit evil nature of the humans in it. I think it is not all that grey, there are some pretty definitive good and evil players in it. It is the grey ones that add texture to this piece, such as Ser Clegane and the Dwarf.

So the series is a cliche, just a better written one.

PS sorry for all name spelling mistakes, as I don't have the titles in front of me.

[Conqueror]

Pape, I think you should use some spoiler tags on your message. That information might be a little too much for those who haven't read the first book through.