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Thread: What to do with religion?

  1. #31

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Cool :)

  2. #32

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    just an idea as far as how to make ork waghs different than just an average force. similar to how unique units are only available to crusades, so could they be in he wagh forces, perhaps stronger/more expensive as they are under the influence of the wagh. incorporatings priests/religion could be quite difficult, and perhaps rather than seeing religion as religion, it would be more similar to covert operations. Increasing the relative costs of these dissension causers and decreasing their overall effects would more closely represent this. Therefore the player could have some control over 'religion' as I propose it would be more of a demoralizing agent. However, changing the effects of priests may not be viable, so instead I would propose to greatly increase their costs, so no over-invested nation would be able to afford more than 1 'priest' per 5 provinces they control at any given time. Of course it would be possible, just make their upkeep so high that additional agents would reduce the more important case of maintaining strong armies.

  3. #33

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Great looking mod, my two bits. Crusades are a part of Warhammer, period. Crusades were launched by the Empire, Brettonia, Tilea (and the surrounding regions) against the Skaven, Araby, and to a certain extent the undead. I will dig up some fluff sources when I get off work .

    Warhammer really does boil down to a fight between good and evil, bearing in mind that both sides don't mind fighting one another along the way. It is important to point out that there are at least two distinct camps. High Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarves, Brittonia, The Empire, Kislev, the Border Princes, the Tilean City States, all of them can and do make alliances, and support one another. But you would never see them making an alliance with Choas, Beastmen, Skaven, Undead, Dark Elves, Choas Dwarves, or Fimir. Orcs and Goblins fit in there for the most part as well. There are a couple of groups that seem to swing both ways, as in are more neutral parties, such as the Slaan/lizardmen, Hobgoblin Hegomy, Araby, and some of the tribes between Kislev and Choas Wastes. You could also throw Cathay into that mix for good measure. The point is, there are two main groups who DO NOT tend to mix well, and modifying the existing religious structure could be a way to do that. How would I do it, if I could? By alignment/motivations.

    Lawful/Good

    Neutral/Some Evil

    Choatic/Rest of the Evil

    I have heard different numbers for a religious cap in MTW II, Some say six, others 7, I will shoot on the low end, at six.

    Religion 1 “Catholic” (Neutral, crusading kingdoms)

    Empire
    Brettonia
    Kislev
    Tilean States
    Border Princes
    Estalian Kingdoms
    Dwarves (reclaiming lost dwarf holds, grudges, etc) (could be orthodox instead)

    Religion 2 “Orthodox” Good, Lawful, Tend to be Isolationist, no crusades /jihads
    Wood Elves
    High Elves

    Religion 3 Chaos Worshippers “Muslim” Jihad, Evil, Chaotic Evil Races (have history of mass invasions)

    Khorne
    Nurgle
    Tzeentch
    Slaaneesh
    Beastmen
    Orc and Goblin
    Skaven

    Religion 4 “Heretic 1” Non Crusading/Jihad Neutral (even a little evil)

    Old Slaan/Lizardmen
    Hobgoblin Hegomy
    Northern Steppe Tribes
    Araby
    Cathay/Dragon Isles


    Religion 5 heretic 2 non jihad evil races

    Vampire Counts
    Tomb Kings
    Dark Elves
    Chaos Dwarves

    That gives me

    7 “catholic faction”
    7 “muslim factions”
    2 “Orthodox”
    4-5 “heretic 1” factions
    5 “heretic 2” factions


    The key here is you have you two main divisions, the catholics and muslims. Those in one camp despise those in the other, meaning that although they could be allied for a short period of time it is unlikely to endure. The orthodox factions should also have enmity towards the muslim ones. Heritic 1 factions are could go either way, while heretic 2 factions are the opposite of the orthodox and would tend to lean towards aligning them selves with the “muslim” factions.

    The different “religions” are more like levels of tolerance. You can stratify the groups with different cultures, just like you have northern and southern European cultures, we could stratify the catholic factions into:

    Northern European
    Empire
    Brettonia
    Border Princes

    Southern European
    Estalia
    Tilean States

    Eastern Culture
    Kislev

    Dwarves, who knows. If I understand the game mechanics correctly though this stratification also causes unrest, IE having a SE Church when you are a NE factions causes some unrest until you upgrade it or destroy and replace it. I assume the same thing could be done to separate the Muslim factions into a chaos culture, ork and goblin culture, and skaven culture.

    Just my two bits LOL. I am willing to help as needed, but I do not have extensive modding experience in MTW II, though some in other games like Morrowind. I do a bit of petty messing around with basic game files, nothing fancy.

  4. #34

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    The problem isnt a matter of crusades not being part of the warhammer world, its a matter of how the game mechanics deals with them. Crusades are called by the pope who is a physical character on the map with his own faction which has its own hardcoded rules and is elected from agents of the catholic factions. Jihads are less complicated but they are called by agents who have other hardcoded effects. We can find a way to work around these and implement crusades and the like without re-writing how they work in the warhammer world it'll be done.

  5. #35
    Awesome Cold One Knight Member Goncalou's Avatar
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    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkhal View Post
    An alternative could be:

    1) Chaotic: Norse, Kurgan, Beastmen, Skaven, Chaos Dwarfs, Druchii(alot of people will get angry, but unless we want to play on the conflict between the cult of Khaine and the cult of pleasure it should be ok).
    2) Old Gods: same as in the post above mentioned above
    3) Humanoid: same as mentioned in the post above
    4) Savage: the "barbarian races", Ogres, Orcs and others who might fit
    5) Forgotten Gods: including the Vampire Counts and the Tomb Kings
    Elves have some different gods but they all share a common one, which is Khaela Mensha Khaine, normally just named Khaine who is the elven god of war, so we could have the elves have all the same religion, by all worshipping the god of war.
    It's a fool's race to be run, if all is lost if it be won.

  6. #36
    Member Member Pantsalot's Avatar
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    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntfang View Post
    Religion 3 Chaos Worshippers “Muslim” Jihad, Evil, Chaotic Evil Races (have history of mass invasions)
    U don't know how prejudice against Muslims that sounds

  7. #37

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    I remember reading something about an albion campaign some time back, that had mages or some sort of dark shrouded man that gathered together the "good races" to gain some magical item or something in the like, while there was an evil version that gathered the "evil races" to fight the good ones.

    Maybe you could change the model for the priest into a dark shrouded mage or aspiring champion or something in the like, while they may not exactly give piety......probably code it so it doesnt change the unrest cause of religion or whatnot....BUT they could still call a crusade, and have the pope represent the leader of these heroes/mages or w.e they were.

    and same with "muslim" factions, whether they be the traditional good factions or evil factions, same process

  8. #38
    Awesome Cold One Knight Member Goncalou's Avatar
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    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I'm still not convinced. I still a proponent of calling it "cultural afiliation" or something like it. An invader becomes gradually the dominant culture. If we elmiminate priests this shift will be even more gradual and a lot harder as a player to control. We can have all faction specific buildings increase their "religious/cultural conversion" and nothing else.

    All the people aren't killed when Skavens take a settlement. They make the resident population slaves. So they'll be alive and ready to be liberated. I assume it's the same deal with orcs. The only cultures hell-bent on destroying anything not of their race are humans and the Tomb Kings. I'm not sure how we could make that to be represented in a convincing way. Skaven live underground anyway so I guess it would still work.

    Since every faction has their own religion, keeping the religion as in MTW2 won't add anything. I think it would be better to just write that so-and-so religion is being worshiped without their being any effects on the game mechanic.
    I don't know. I still think crusades should be included, for one reason. That reason is that it make the people on the crusade able to move i think 50% farther. So that would help, especially if youre going somewhere far off.
    It's a fool's race to be run, if all is lost if it be won.

  9. #39

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Thats not really a very good reason to include them, the same effect can be done with traits without all the hardcoded crap that goes with crusades

  10. #40

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Yes to religion.
    No to pope.

  11. #41

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Khaine isn't that the blood god in WH40k?

  12. #42
    Awesome Cold One Knight Member Goncalou's Avatar
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    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by koko198 View Post
    Khaine isn't that the blood god in WH40k?
    yeah it is, he still exists after about 40000 years, ya know cause he's immortal.
    It's a fool's race to be run, if all is lost if it be won.

  13. #43

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abokasee View Post
    How about:

    Orks: Gork'n'Mork (These to ork gods have different meanings, but no one sure which one is which, Most say gork will hit mork really hard, the mork hits gorks when he is not looking, or the otherway round) should be aloud to do WAAAGH, jihad style,

    Empire: Imperial, (Generally for all the Imperial gods, including sigmar)

    Bretonnia: not sure, Various heros and the lady of lake? not sure...

    Choas: Each of the gods, might be able to call a sort of crusade on the main empire city... (4 different temples for each of the gods allowing different units for each temple)

    Lizard men: Old ones

    Not to sure about the others...
    Good thinking that man, IMO.

    My only question is, what exactly are these winds of magic going to do? Apart from sow chaos and disorder into various neighbouring provinces, I mean.

    What I was thinking is would it be possible to take the mechanics of the merchants and add them to the priests? If the priests become wizards (or each factions variant thereof) then suddenly it could be quite cool, especially to have a mighty wizard wandering the map, converting and destroying rival wizard-types.

    There is also the "X% Type" restriction mechanic, like with the Teutonic Knights requiring 80% Catholics in an area, the undead units might require a certain percentage of "death magic" in an area before undead can be raised by their Necromancers (the undead priestly substitute). The same goes for Warpriests of Sigmar or whatever they're called, and probably Chaos' demon units.

    I don't know the Warhammer magic groupings, so this is a rough guess gleaned from the thread, just to use as a guideline.

    Faction - Priest-type

    Death Magic (Heretic):

    Vampire Counts - Necromancer
    Tomb Kings - Necromancer

    Old Magic (Orthodox):

    Lizardmen - Shaman
    Dwarves -
    High Elves - Mage

    Light Magic (Catholic):
    Brettonnia - Light Wizard
    Empire - Priest

    Waagh Magic (Islam):
    Orcs and Goblins - Wierdboy/Shaman

    "Chaos" magic (Paganism)
    Chaos - Sorceror
    Skaven - Cultist
    Dark Elves - Witch

    These are, again, just rough guesses at what categories to use, but I think the existing mechanics should be okay for them, such as the Bright Magic types being able to call crusades (I assume their magic is very much tied in with their gods) and the Waagh magic users calling a Waagh (jihad).

    The Theologians Guild could be replaced with a Mage's guild, and the religious buildings changed to wizard's tower-type ones, too.

  14. #44

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Dwarfs - Runesmith or Dwarf Elder

    Anyway I would prefer to stay at the religion / culture solution rather than magic.
    For exemple:

    Old world faith
    - Priest/Priestess (Empire / Bretonia)

    Chaos
    - Cultist / Witch / Grey Seer (Chaos / Dark Elfes / Skaven)

    Ancient Gods
    - Seer (High Elfes & Wood Elfes)

    Ancestall Faith
    - Elder (Dwarfs)


    Wild Faith
    - Shaman (Orcs)

    Heresy
    - Hierofant / Necromancer (Tomb Kings / Vampire Counts)

  15. #45

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Ancestral Cult
    - Elder (Dwarfs)

  16. #46

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    The Old Ones
    Skink Priest (Lizardmen)

  17. #47

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    bah it's not ''khaine'' it's Khorne and the marauders should have warcry like ''Blood for the blood god'' wich is like a plea for strength and victory coz khorne are to be worshipped on the battlefield not in a temple and yup Be'lakor was the first mortal one to achieve daemonhood and immortality he became arrogant wich brought his dowfall coz then tzeencht (spelling) punished him making him the harbringer to crown the everchosen ones with the crown of domination but to never wield it himself...and Archaon was/is the most powerfull everchosen that ever has existed since he have the artifacts of passed ones and a lot of other things...I got make sure of one thing ...please please don't make chaos and empire in same religion that would completly bann me from this mod coz that is just so WRONG they are the opposites chaos always tries to beat empire and nearly succeds until they form alliance with others and form an army and that was the end lesson for today

  18. #48

    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    Khaine = elf/eldar god of murder......

    khorne= chaos god of savagery...blood.....death....destruction...you name it.


  19. #49
    Member Member Garland, Chosen of Horo's Avatar
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    Default Re: What to do with religion?

    As a temporary measure, one could simply add the factions to the Order/Destruction alignment, at least until the religions are coded in.
    DESTRUCTION and apples IN THE NAME OF THE WOLF GODDESS OF CHAOS!

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