What to do with religion?

[DrZoidberg]

Religion is a major part of WH just as it is in MTW2. With only the slight difference that the devil actually does exist...and has an army...and it's comming right at you.

So how do you guys feel about squeezing WH religions into MTW2?

It's obvious that the creators of Warhammer made this translation: Church of Sigmar = Catholic church and The Supreme Patriarch = The Pope.

The problem is that the only major faction that is Sigmarite is the Empire. Bretonnians worship "The Lady of the Lake". In fact, each faction in WH has their own religion which removes the whole religion dynamic we've got in MTW2.

I suggest that we keep the system but use it for something else.

We could call it "Cultural loyalty"? Or just "Culture". Which is the culture the population are most loyal to. We could devide all the factions into various cultural groups. Where Pagan = non faction culture loyalty, and heretics represent level of corruption to Chaos.

How many religions is the hard coded limit in MTW2?
Thoughts on this?

[Bob the Spork]

Right then, I have ideas on this (as usual). Ahem…

Religion can replace the ‘winds of magic’. These, in warhammer, carry the magical power of the world throughout it. They wax and wane and the amount of, for example, Chaos worshippers in an area can unbalance the winds in that area, as could the amount of any other worshippers.

The first one, heretics, can show the power of Chaos is strong in an area. This would be for Chaos, Undead and Dark Elves, who have similar dark magic based around the Lore of Death. The fact that these evil races are ‘heretics’ fits in well with…

Catholicism. This should be the religion of The Empire, Kislev, Brettonia, Tilea, Estalia and the Border Princes. It represents the power of the Good Gods, who oppose the powers of Chaos. This would include Sigmar, Ulric and the Lady of the Lake, but also lesser deities such as Morr or Myrmidia. Generally, however, all these gods are good, and strive to destroy Chaos. Their followers largely accept one another and get along, so they can be one ‘religion’. The Pope, as there isn’t one, can be replaced by a ‘Will of the Gods’, which reflects the general opinion of Gods of Order to destroy Chaos and Paganism, which I’ll talk about in a second.

Othodox should represent ‘Old Magic’, and be used by Dwarfs (although they don’t really have magic, they’ll still affect it, and they still worship gods), wood and high elves and the lizardmen. Albion as well, should it ever be included. This represents the magic of elder races which stems from the same roots, the teachings of the Old Ones, and so will be similar in nature, as well as still being an enemy of the heretics (Chaos).

Paganism, last of all, should be orcs and goblins, representing the Waaagh! energy of the green hordes.

[Casuir]

The mtw2 approach to religion doesnt fit the warhammer world. It'll have to be sorted out but some of it just wont work. The pope is an actual ingame charachter with his own faction, having him represent the will of the gods isnt going to work. Which means crusades are out as well. I think you guys are looking at this from a how can we adapt warhammer into the mtw2 engine rather than adapt the mtw engine to warhammer, those parts of the original game that dont fit, we can leave out if possible.

[Bwian]

The Pope has got to go.....too much of a problem having him in a mod!

There also comes a whole bunch of issues around the way a Pope impacts on a game that just don't fit. I don't want a Pope giving out missions, calling crusades or excommunicating factions. Just won't fit.

The religious aspects of the game such as Heretics, can be used to give the feel we need, but we will have to be very careful how we put this forward. I would rather have a complete set of mutually hostile factions with no religous ties than have something that imposes limitations purely by triggering unwanted game reactions.

We must, at all times, remember the Game Engine. We want to put the recreate teh Warhammer world in MTW2, but by doing so, we must abide by the restrictions of the game engine.

More important than religion will be setting some parameters to the way races react and ally with each other. The rest is just fluff.

[Meneldil]

The problem is that the only major faction that is Sigmarite is the Empire. Bretonnians worship "The Lady of the Lake". In fact, each faction in WH has their own religion which removes the whole religion dynamic we've got in MTW2.

AFAIK, most human nations worship the same gods. Sigmar, the Lady of the Lake and the various kislevite gods are just local oddities (the lady of the lake, for example, is mainly worshiped by knights and nobles). As such, the Sigmarite cult is not a religion as a whole, but rather a part of the human polytheist pantheon. Tileans probably have the same religion aswell.

Furthermore, each faction doesn't have its own religion IMO. The Horned Rat is a former Chaos God, just like the Chaos Dwarves' God (who, if I recall correctly, was even more of a powerful demon than a real god).
I think Wood Elves and High Elves worship the same gods aswell, and probably so do the Dark Elves (but in their own flawed version, and not forgetting the various slaaneshi cults established there).

Game-wise, I haven't played MTW2, and as such, I have no idea how the religions are taken into account, and what's their effect on the game. I don't know aswell if there's a limit in the number of religions one can have in game (IIRC, RTW allowed us to add more religions, but those had no effect on un/happiness).

[Bob the Spork]

As I said above, most of the human gods are wide spread. Ulric, Sigmar and the Lady are just the three biggest ones. Every human realm in the Old World, bar the far North (ie the Chaos guys) and Albion, worships the same set of gods.

I must admit elves aren't my strong point, so I can't comment too much on their gods. However, I believe all three have different gods.

The Horned Rat is not a former Chaos God. The four Chaos Gods are a constant. New ones don't arise, and the old ones don't die off. The Horned Rat could only be a very powerful daemon, though in reality the most powerful daemons are practically gods anyway. It's not really a major point.

[uanime5]

There is no limit to the number of religions you can have but adding a lot of religions will cause problems because there will be no unifying religion in a settlement causing a lot of religious unrest. Bob the Spork's idea is a good way to limit the number of religions while being in line with the Warhammer universe.

I have not tried to remove religion from the game but it will probably be difficult, since it is a major part of it. Though it should be easier to remove the Pope by cutting out the Papal States and making no faction under the Pope's influence.

Also no matter what religion a faction is their priests can become heretics (even it their religion is heresy).

[Bwian]

I don't think religion is a key element of hte mod, to be honest.

In the vanilla game, you have 'christian' and you have 'muslim' and they are naturally oposed to each other. Christian faction attacks christian faction, and the Pope gets annoyed. Crusades and Jihad's are called on the opposite sides territories.

The need for religion to control or influence a city is not relevant to a situation where an entirely different species takes over a city. I can't imagine 'religous unrest' being a factor in an Empire city being overrun by Skaven.....Oooohhh...you refuse to worship the Horned Rat ... oh..thats because we killed and ate you all.

[uanime5]

Maybe we should rename it cultural unrest and it could be caused by a different culture occupying your city eg Skaven in Empire cities.

[DrZoidberg]

Maybe we should rename it cultural unrest and it could be caused by a different culture occupying your city eg Skaven in Empire cities.

Which takes us back to my original suggestion.

[Krazysigmarite]

If religions are indeed added as religions themselves, I think localizing the religions IS a good thing. Though the Empire does have a pantheon of gods, it is very different from what the Bretonnians believe. The Tileans may follow the imperial pantheon, being a former state. The Empire however is overwhelmingly Sigmarite. Sigmar Heldenhammer, the warrior-god, was born under the two-tailed comet, and united the tribes in the area which is now known as the Empire. He essentially founded it - think Charlemagne, except deified. The temple of Sigmar is massive, and Sigmar is THE God of the Empire - though there are a few lesser worshipped deities, their worship can be compared to the worship of saints in christianity. One exception of course is the city of Middenheim, which worships the god Ulric, however this is the only place where another god is worshiped more than Sigmar within the Empire. Even the province of Middenland, (Middenheim being the capitol) is primarily Sigmarite.

Anyway, that's my spiel on Imperial worship.

[Meneldil]

The Horned Rat is not a former Chaos God. The four Chaos Gods are a constant. New ones don't arise, and the old ones don't die off. The Horned Rat could only be a very powerful daemon, though in reality the most powerful daemons are practically gods anyway. It's not really a major point.

The god of the Chaos Dwarves (Hashut) IIRC, is a former Khornate deamon who betrayed his master and atteined godhood.
There's also Malal, the Outcast, a major chaos god whose main aim is to destroy Chaos.

I don't recall their names, but there's also a Chaos God who was introduced in a WFRP novel, and who represents atheism and agnosticism. There's also a former Everchosen who, after gaining deamonhood, tried to attein godhood (that would me it is at least possible).

Chaos God a created by other races feelings and ideas. Although GW fluff primarly stick to the 4 major ones and a few minor gods, I think we can basically say there's potentially a crapload of chaos god. It's just that some of them aren't worshiped, disappeared or are just unknown.

[Gurkhal]

I'd like to point out that its just one of several theories that Hashut is a Khornate Daemon who rebelled against Khorne. To my knowledge there is no official fluff from GW regarding it.

Second Malal is not possible to include. GW don't use him, and indeed don't have the IP rights to him. And since we're making a fan product of the GW universe, I doubt that we can include him.

The former Everchosen of whom you speak would probably be Be'lakor, who however wasn't the first Everchosen, but indeed the first Daemon Prince. Also I am unsure if any Everchosen have ever manage to reach Daemonhood, they have all to my knowledge been destroyed by a Champion of Light.

[Jargon]

A slight modification to Bob The Spocks idea of using the Winds of Magic. Its distressing to lump so many factions together arbitarily, but impossible otherwise. If you take out the Will of the Gods concept, I think your idea fits into the game world the best, considering the extreme limitations of 4-5 religions.

1) Death Magic (Heretic): Undead, Skaven, Dark Elves, Chaos (Can the Heretic religion be made playbale?)

2) High or Old Magic (Orthodox): Dwarf, wood elves, high elves, lizardmen

3) Light or Bright Magic (Catholicism) The Empire, Kislev, Brettonia, Tilea, Estalia

4) Waaagh (Islam): Orcs and Goblins (Islam will allow the Orcs to perform "Waaaghh" Jihads on other races)

5) Paganism: Tomb King (What do these guys name their magic?)

[Abokasee]

How about:

Orks: Gork'n'Mork (These to ork gods have different meanings, but no one sure which one is which, Most say gork will hit mork really hard, the mork hits gorks when he is not looking, or the otherway round) should be aloud to do WAAAGH, jihad style,

Empire: Imperial, (Generally for all the Imperial gods, including sigmar)

Bretonnia: not sure, Various heros and the lady of lake? not sure...

Choas: Each of the gods, might be able to call a sort of crusade on the main empire city... (4 different temples for each of the gods allowing different units for each temple)

Lizard men: Old ones

Not to sure about the others...

[Casuir]

Aye so we'll have orc imams wandering about trying to convert people

[Gurkhal]

Would it not be possible to mod-out the ability of Imans by simple not making any building capable to train them?

Edit: Anyway, information on the maximum of hard-coded religions would indeed be useful.

[Abokasee]

Yeah there should be no preist agents... the campain would be sort of mucked up.

[Gurkhal]

1) Death Magic (Heretic): Undead, Skaven, Dark Elves, Chaos (Can the Heretic religion be made playbale?)

2) High or Old Magic (Orthodox): Dwarf, wood elves, high elves, lizardmen

3) Light or Bright Magic (Catholicism) The Empire, Kislev, Brettonia, Tilea, Estalia

4) Waaagh (Islam): Orcs and Goblins (Islam will allow the Orcs to perform "Waaaghh" Jihads on other races)

5) Paganism: Tomb King (What do these guys name their magic?)

An alternative could be:

1) Chaotic: Norse, Kurgan, Beastmen, Skaven, Chaos Dwarfs, Druchii(alot of people will get angry, but unless we want to play on the conflict between the cult of Khaine and the cult of pleasure it should be ok).
2) Old Gods: same as in the post above mentioned above
3) Humanoid: same as mentioned in the post above
4) Savage: the "barbarian races", Ogres, Orcs and others who might fit
5) Forgotten Gods: including the Vampire Counts and the Tomb Kings

[Casuir]

No Imams = no jihads

[uanime5]

I'd just like to point out that changing the names (data\text\religions.txt) and symbols (data\ui\pips) of the existing religions can be easily done. Also a faction can have heresy as their religion.

[DrZoidberg]

I'd just like to point out that changing the names (data\text\religions.txt) and symbols (data\ui\pips) of the existing religions can be easily done. Also a faction can have heresy as their religion.

I'm assuming you're thinking of Chaos. That would be really cool. I think we should drop crusades all together. They make no sense in the Warhammer world.

[DrZoidberg]

What I mean is that, there's no point having a crusade if it only will encompas one faction. Ok, so we have the Waaagh for the Orcs. So an Orc calls a Jihad/Waaagh. Then what. What's the difference between this and just attacking normaly.

Same with grail quests for Bretonnia. And same for what ever it is that Sigmarites in Empire are on. Nechrarchs are also on their own crusades, but can still only encompass one faction. Horned Rat for Skaven. There are very few factions that have anything in common.

And then we've got conversions that make less sense. No human will ever start worshiping the Horned Rat or Gork and Mork.

BTW. Gork is fighty but cunning and Mork is Cunning but Fighty. It's from the army book. It's the extent of their religius tenets.

[uanime5]

What I mean is that, there's no point having a crusade if it only will encompas one faction. Ok, so we have the Waaagh for the Orcs. So an Orc calls a Jihad/Waaagh. Then what. What's the difference between this and just attacking normaly.

Same with grail quests for Bretonnia. And same for what ever it is that Sigmarites in Empire are on. Nechrarchs are also on their own crusades, but can still only encompass one faction. Horned Rat for Skaven. There are very few factions that have anything in common.

It may be better to have guild / council missions instead of jihads and crusades.

And then we've got conversions that make less sense. No human will ever start worshiping the Horned Rat or Gork and Mork.

If the Skaven conquer a human settlement they will kill the humans and destroy their religious buildings, then worship the Horned Rat. This will increase the Skaven religion and decrease the human one. Also a priest from one religions could cause problems in another religion by criticising the host religion.

[DrZoidberg]

If the Skaven conquer a human settlement they will kill the humans and destroy their religious buildings, then worship the Horned Rat. This will increase the Skaven religion and decrease the human one. Also a priest from one religions could cause problems in another religion by criticising the host religion.

I'm still not convinced. I still a proponent of calling it "cultural afiliation" or something like it. An invader becomes gradually the dominant culture. If we elmiminate priests this shift will be even more gradual and a lot harder as a player to control. We can have all faction specific buildings increase their "religious/cultural conversion" and nothing else.

All the people aren't killed when Skavens take a settlement. They make the resident population slaves. So they'll be alive and ready to be liberated. I assume it's the same deal with orcs. The only cultures hell-bent on destroying anything not of their race are humans and the Tomb Kings. I'm not sure how we could make that to be represented in a convincing way. Skaven live underground anyway so I guess it would still work.

Since every faction has their own religion, keeping the religion as in MTW2 won't add anything. I think it would be better to just write that so-and-so religion is being worshiped without their being any effects on the game mechanic.

[Bongfu]

I think adding as many religions as possible could be fun. Sure there would be tons of religious unrest, but just add some powerful buildings to set off that unbalance. Look at Russia and there studios that blast the effect of Orthodox worship in Vanilla.

Alternatively, we can just have one religion for each kind of factions, but use the old RTW system of different religious building trees. So like if your faction worships Sigmar, then build a shrine to Sigmar.

[Abokasee]

AH HA!!! I Have solution to the priest problem

Orks: Wyrdboy, not a good converter, but able to do some stuff, not sure what kinda stuff, but definatly ork waaagh (imatated jihad)

Empire, Bretonnia, All the choas gods: Traditional Preist thingy

Skaven, Lizardmen, Elves (all), everyone else: No preists

Building solution

The factions with no priests (and orcs) have a very good conversion rate, almost 100%

The other factions, There buildings work as normal

[uanime5]

AH HA!!! I Have solution to the priest problem

Orks: Wyrdboy, not a good converter, but able to do some stuff, not sure what kinda stuff, but definatly ork waaagh (imatated jihad)

Empire, Bretonnia, All the choas gods: Traditional Preist thingy

Skaven, Lizardmen, Elves (all), everyone else: No preists

Building solution

The factions with no priests (and orcs) have a very good conversion rate, almost 100%

The other factions, There buildings work as normal

So only certain factions can have priests, while other factions have religious buildings but cannot train priests. I would like to point out that not being able to train priests does not mean that the faction does not having a religion (all factions must have a religion). Also what is the point of having religious buildings it you cannot train religious agents (other than the small amount of religious conversion and some health benefits)?

Also it would go against the spirit of Warhammer if the Empire, Bretonnia, and Chaos were all the same religion (unless one is Catholic and the other is Orthodox, thus producing different priests).

[Dogman55]

[QUOTE=uanime5]So only certain factions can have priests, while other factions have religious buildings but cannot train priests. I would like to point out that not being able to train priests does not mean that the faction does not having a religion (all factions must have a religion). Also what is the point of having religious buildings it you cannot train religious agents (other than the small amount of religious conversion and some health benefits)?

Is it possible to add additional affects or units such as in RTW and MTW? Like how Denmark got War clerics from churches, The empire sigmar worshipping building could produce small groups of priests of sigmar. Higher end religous buildings for Chaos could be the way to produce daemons. Just my take.

[uanime5]

Is it possible to add additional affects or units such as in RTW and MTW? Like how Denmark got War clerics from churches, The empire sigmar worshipping building could produce small groups of priests of sigmar. Higher end religous buildings for Chaos could be the way to produce daemons. Just my take.

That is possible and can be easily coded.