Traits, ancillaries and titles - Gathering some ideas

[Meneldil]

I know it might be a bit early to start thinking about these things, but I think it couldn't hurt to start throwing ideas. Hope Bwian and co don't mind ;)
While they might appear secondary, I think they're really important in order to catch a warhammer feeling, and overall, to make the game more fun and exciting, aswell as looking really polished.

So, I'll start by throwing my own ideas, and more precisely ideas for my favorite faction : the Bretonnians

Obviously, bretonnians should have specific traits that would be related to their carreer as knights.
Basically, as they perform their duties and serve the lady of the Lake, they should have access to higher ranks in the knightly hierarchy.

Most characters would start as Errant Knights. As such, they wouldn't be allowed to get any governor-like trait and ancillaries, no titles, etc, but would eventually get a bonus to moral (as errant knights as known to be willing to face the biggest threat possible to prove their bravery).
To achieve the title of Knight of the Realm, they would have to achieve various yet simple objectives : winning a few battles here and there for example.

Knights of the realms would lose their moral bonus, but would have access to governor, land-owner and other management titles, traits and ancillaries.

From now on, a few character, fulfilling some conditions (determined by other traits if possible), would become Knights of the Quest. As such, they would lose all of their governor traits (once again !), but be rewarded by battle-oriented stats (more moral, possibly more hitpoints, etc.)

Finally, by performing extraordinary tasks, a few chosen characters among the few knights of the quest would become Grail Knights. These tasks should be really hard to achieve, defeating huge armies against all odds, fighting far away from Bretonnia (don't know if coding that is possible, I doubt so), and things like that. Once they've become Grail Knights, they would be allowed to get back their management trait aswell as their battle traits, and possibly get more bonus (afterall, Grail Knight are among the most powerful human beings).

[Jargon]

Great ideas Meneldil, just the kind of thing that will add to the Warhammer feeling of the game.

Some other ideas for Bretonnia:
- Squire (fairly standard)
- Lady of the Lake Blessing (something about how they have been divinely touched)
- Minstrel (An increase to their fame)
- Damsel Saviour (known for running around saving damsels in distress)
- Reliquae (This general has a personal relique, increasing piety/command?)

If Chaos are a un-playbale horde race, i'm not sure if they need these, but a logical benefit for Chaos Generals would be mutation traits:

Leg Mutation (increased campaign map movement)
Chest Mutation (increased hitpoints)
Tail Mutation (increased what?)
Claw Mutation (increased attack)
Tentacle Mutation (theres no way to increase the speed/number of attacks without changing the animation is there?)

There are lots of possibilites, extra teeth, extra hands, toxic cloud attacks etc. There would also need ot be titles called Marks:

Mark of Khorne (increased combat stat)
Mark of Tzeeth (increased range combat)
Mark of Slaneesh (increased diplomacy? stat)
Mark of Nurgle (increased hit point stat)

The question is whether a Chaos General is part of Chaos Undivided before they gain a mark, or whether they become undivded afterwards. The great chaos lord Archaon is Undivided, and so can control all chaos armies, but there is also the fact that he is specfically chosen by the Chaos gods for the role. The title hierarchy I would suggest would be:

chaos undivided (no bonus, all chaos start this way) ----> mark of chaos (specific bonus) -----> Chosen of the Gods (lots of bonuses)

There should be a small percent chance for every non-chaos general in the game to possibly gain a Chaos Corruption trait. This fits in well witht he lore of the game that chaos is everywhere. It could range from an extremly slim chance for High Elves and Dwarves, to the largest percent chance for Humans and Orcs. I dont know if the Tomb Kings can be influence dor not by chaos. This will decrease their piety, loyalty, authority or whatever the appropraite stat would be, and it would be nice if this could potentially grow untill the general is fully chaos corrupted.

Touched by Chaos -----> Corrupted by Chaos -------> Controlled by Chaos

[Dogman55]

Hi guys. Warhammer geek here, at your service.

Anyway. Some traits for the Lizardmen could be the different spawnings of the old gods for characters, or even trainable types of units with the traits:

Tzunki: Tzunki is associated with water and the spawned under his influence may have sea green colored skin and have gills and webbed hands. Can't really see what you do with this one. +% to movement points, maybe? Or if it's possible, lessen the penalty from climate affects?


Sotek: Although the Great serpent Sotek isn't an Old One, he is in fact the only true lizardmen "God" in the conventional sense (a being created by the sub-conscience of those who believe in him) , skinks and saurus are still spawned under his influence. Those who are can be very furious fighters and have red skin, scales or crests.
For me this one seems pretty obvious. +attacks in some way to the character and his unit.

Quetzl: Those who are spawned under the warrior and protector have more bony crests and they are hardier than others.
+Armor or defense seems like a good choice for this one.

Tlazcotl: Those who have yellow crests or scales are blessed by Tlazcotl. Those who are, are just impassive as he is.
I don't know if theres such a way to make characters or units to not rout. But if there was, this'd be it.

Chotec: Those who are blessed by the solar one have an uncommon amount of energy that makes them keep going while other cold-blooded creatures would stop. They also have a fiery orange hue to their bodies.
+% to movement points looks good here!


Haunchi: The jaguar one of the earth and night passes on the ability to pass through the thickest growth with ease.
+Combat bonus in woods or looks a good choice here.

Tepok: Those who are blessed by the winged serpent have purple coloring and high resistance to magic.
I haven't seen whether you guys are going to add magic into the game, if it is even possible. If not, might just leave this one out.

Itzl: Itzl's spawning is recognized by a large bony crest and they produce a musk that calms Cold ones.
Can't see what this mark could do. Heh.

Xhotl: Those ones who are watched over by Xhotl have a magic field protecting them that also strikes all those who harm the marked warrior.
I would just say this one adds defense an/or hitpoints.

Blessed mark of the Old Ones: The rarest of all spawnings it is recognised by white or albino colouring. The are highly respected, for their fate must be important.
Something must be special for this trait. Since its sucha respected trait, + morale would be an obvious choice. This trait, in my opinion, should be the one with the most benefits to it, but should be also very rare.

[Bwian]

Warhammer Geeks always welcome here!

[Jubal_Barca]

One idea I may be using for WHTW1 is having magic items as ancillaries.

So eg;

Chaos Warpsword, obtainable by a chaos general with valour 6+, gives him +5 attack strength, or whatever.

This could be a good way to add in magic items as they are an integral part of the tabletop game.

[Meneldil]

Yeah, that's pretty obvious. I haven't listed any artefact or item cause I have to find my old army books ;)

[Jubal_Barca]

I don't have M2TW, sadly, so I don't know what stats there are and what ancillaries can modify.

Anyhow, ones I know;
Radiant Gem of Hoeth - HE, could allow the character to have a wizard bodyguard or provide bonuses to wizards in his army. (In WHFB means all spells cast by the user are irresistible force.
Mastodon Armour - OK, gives +5 HP (In WHFB allows the user to regenerate with 1 wound after death)
Banner of the Barrows - VC, Gives +1 valour to general's bodyguard (IN WHFB means unit only needs 3+ to hit)
Morglum's best Basha - O+G, gives +1hp, +1 attack factor, +0.5 kill chance (In WHFB gives +1 I,S,WS)
Grimnir's Axe - A VERY rare item, gives +3 kill chance, +3 attack factor, +2 armour (or probably higher).

[Dogman55]

I am pretty well versed in Warcraft Lore, specifically Lizardmen. So if any of you Big Modders want info or such, Id be happy to help!

[Jargon]

I don't have M2TW, sadly, so I don't know what stats there are and what ancillaries can modify.

Anyhow, ones I know;
Radiant Gem of Hoeth - HE, could allow the character to have a wizard bodyguard or provide bonuses to wizards in his army. (In WHFB means all spells cast by the user are irresistible force.
Mastodon Armour - OK, gives +5 HP (In WHFB allows the user to regenerate with 1 wound after death)
Banner of the Barrows - VC, Gives +1 valour to general's bodyguard (IN WHFB means unit only needs 3+ to hit)
Morglum's best Basha - O+G, gives +1hp, +1 attack factor, +0.5 kill chance (In WHFB gives +1 I,S,WS)
Grimnir's Axe - A VERY rare item, gives +3 kill chance, +3 attack factor, +2 armour (or probably higher).

The attributes for General and agent characters are:

Command, Dread, Piety, Loyalty

They pretty much effect what they suggest. Command, Dread and Loyalty will likely be important for the mod, not sure what will happen to piety untill Bwian decides on what effect religion will have.

I had a quick look and found some areas that can be influenced by traits:

Trade income, tax income, the cost to bribe, generals hitpoints, authority, law (public order), build points (siege engines), chivalry, personal security, movement points, ambushing, charm, agent skill, line of sight, chance of having children, influence, popularity (public order), farming output, command when defending, command when assaulting walls, command with cavalry etc.

Most of them are useable by every faction, but some seem like they should re-occur more often for certain groups. Is it possible to increase the likeliness of traits for specific factions?

Skaven could automaticaly get night fighting, increased chance for ambushing and their assassins should have plenty of Agent Skill increases. Dwarf generals would be more likely to have mining income skills and siege engine build point skills. Tomb Kings would have incredible cost to bribe (if not impossible). High Elf would have plenty of law and order skills (rebeling High Elves?). Bretonnian generals would be a likely candidate for cavalry command and chivalry increases. The Empire is highly dependent on influence, farming, charm, finance ec. The Vampire Counts should get lots of Dread skills.

There may be plenty of other areas that could be effected that I havn't found. Does anyone know of an exhaustive list? The various increase to command skills make me wonder. Can you increase command when using archers, gunpowder, infantry etc?

[Jargon]

Faction Specific Traits

It occured to me that there were certain qualities of each race that traits could help to define. These would be traits that every general of a faction automatically recieves, and would be unique to that race. They should not be restrictive or game imbalancing, and would help to create the flavour for that faction.

Vampire Count- "Lord of the Undead". Increase to dread due to their vampiric nature. Also every general would have night fighting.

Skaven- "Feral Instinct". Night fighting and ambushing come naturally to Skaven (do you agree with this considering their ruthless, undergound background?)

Chaos- "Champion of Chaos". This chaos warrior has been carefully selected by his God, and such an imposing creature would surely automatically start with a high dread.

Tomb King- "Bound to the Tomb King." Increase to loyalty, impossible to bribe. Am I correct in assuming that the undead generals of the Tomb King are pretty much his slaves without any personal thought? Not sure on this history.

Orcs- "Big 'un eat 'Small 'un". Decrease to loyalty, decrease to authority and law. Orcy society is rough and tumble, and this automatic stat change for every orc general should help with creating the precarious animosity that exists between their kind.


The following I think are big maybes, as they could represent generalisations and stereotypes that every general may not have inherited:

Dwarves- would a mining and siege equipment stat increase be excessive, or does it just make sense that every dwarf general naturally knows how to operate mines and machinery?

Bretonnia- Would every Bretonnian general be a "Knight of the Realm", and therefore be chivarlous and have good command of cavalry? Is it possible to have a Bretonnian general who just isnt a good knight, or are these the qualities that they are selected on?

High Elves- Are they widely known for their loyalty and authority? It would make sense as a counterpoint to the orcs, considering how well structured and orderly Elf society is.

I dont know much about Lizardmen, Wood elves and some of the others to offer suggestions. Empire should remain neutral, as they represent the 'average' human faction.

[Dogman55]

For Lizardmen I think Loyalty for characters would be maxed out, at the very least.After all, all of the lizardmen were created to live and die by the slann, so they wont go renegade on them. Leaders wouldn't be very chivalrous, both because outsiders (who see people's heads on poles) wouldnt think them that nor their own kind, who dont seem to fathom what it is to be chivalrous.

[Jargon]

For Lizardmen I think Loyalty for characters would be maxed out, at the very least.After all, all of the lizardmen were created to live and die by the slann, so they wont go renegade on them. Leaders wouldn't be very chivalrous, both because outsiders (who see people's heads on poles) wouldnt think them that nor their own kind, who dont seem to fathom what it is to be chivalrous.

Do the Lizardmen have any sort of history of rebellion or internal struggle? I think this should play a large part in how loyalty is used.

For a faction like the Tomb King, if the generals are slaves to their master, then there should be 100% loyalty, as it is literaly impossible for them to think about taking a bribe. Orcs on the otherhand are comprised of greedy warlords who wouldn't think twice about attacking their own side, and should have large loyalty decreases. Factions like the Empire, Vampires, Skaven and Bretonnia are made up of independent free-thinking generals, who i guess represent the 'norm'. They can be bribed, but it will cost the normal MTW2 amount (or does anyone think that Skaven can be classified as somewhere between orc and norm level?)

For Lizardmen and other factions like High Elves, Dwarves, Dark Elves etc. would it be unimaginable for any of their generals to turn on their leaders? Would it be impossible, or just more difficult than normal?

On another subject, does anyone else think that the word 'chivalry' doesnt makes much sense as a Warhammer character attribute? It only fits a couple of factions, and seems terribly wrong for most others. Can anyone summarise the benefits of chivarly, and if there is a better word to describe it? Should it be changed to 'Lawfullness' or something similiar to counterpose 'Dread' for the evil factions?

[DrZoidberg]

For a faction like the Tomb King, if the generals are slaves to their master, then there should be 100% loyalty, as it is literaly impossible for them to think about taking a bribe.

It's only the soldiers. "The kings and princes awoke from their long sleep of death with their memories and faculites intact due to the incantations of preservations performed to preserve their bodies".

There was plenty of treachery and politics before they got entombed so they should play out like any other faction.

[Jargon]

Okay thanks Dr Zoiberg, I wasn't sure what the Tomb King history was like, I thought there was a single ruler who raised everything. They would probably be a normal loyalty civ if they has plenty of treachery in their past.

Are the Tomb King's individual generals something like Liche Lord's or Undead Necromancers? That would be a fun job finding interesting names and protraits for them.

[DrZoidberg]

Okay thanks Dr Zoiberg, I wasn't sure what the Tomb King history was like, I thought there was a single ruler who raised everything. They would probably be a normal loyalty civ if they has plenty of treachery in their past.

Are the Tomb King's individual generals something like Liche Lord's or Undead Necromancers? That would be a fun job finding interesting names and protraits for them.

According to the story Khemri was historically split into many rivalring kingdoms constant wars with each other. After Khemri died and Nagash awoke them all these kings who had ruled varying sizes of land during their life time tried to reclaim their land again. It didn't work since every king of every kingdom that had ever existed tried to reclaim it at the same time. The only reason Settra, (the first king of Khemri) was given absolute power is because they couldn't agree on any other leader. His leadership is only based on compromise and has nothing to do with loyalty. On top of this there are more undead kings and princes that are actually needed to run Khemri so Settra talked most of them to go back to their tombs and wait for them to be summoned when needed.

It's called Liche priests, (not lords or necromancers) and they represent the priesthood, and function much like the catholic church did in ancient Europe. Like a power behind the throne. If I understand correctly the liche priests never died, so they aren't technically undead but are kept perpetually one step away from the grave through powerful magic. They have agility 1, so these guys bodies are a complete mess.

The Tomb Kings can't themselves control their armies, that has to be done by the Liche Priests, and they in turn obey the king out of loyalty.

I'd say the Tomb Kings can be played just like any MTW2 faction in this respect. Both Liche Priests and the Tomb Kings can become rebel and turn on Settra. At least according to the source book.

[Jargon]

That creates an interesting situation in managing Tomb King generals.

When you described them as being priests, I assumed they could fufil the same role in M2TW, but they also control the armies and would therefore could be general characters. It would be easy to create this difference between royalty and priest for the starting characters because they will be manually added, some could be royal blood while others the near-dead priests to represent the mix in Warhammer Lore, but how would you create such a division when the computer randomly spawns them later on? Is there a way to link the portrait, name, stats and traits of a character into a group when it spawns, or are all four selected randomly without any connection possible?

It's the same problem with Black orcs and normal orc generals. Black orcs are known for their strength and orderly cool demeanour, but there would need to be a way to link this with the protrait and name so that you dont have a Black orc general spawn with the negative authority and loyalty of a normal orc. There could be lots of potential for this, witch queens/beastmasters for the Dark Elves, different types of clans for Skaven etc.

I realise these arn't major issues, just nit picky points to help make a more in-depth game if there are reasonable answers readily available.

[Casuir]

Dont think thats possible

[DrZoidberg]

I wouldn't like to think of liche priests as catholic priests because they have totaly different roles. Liche priests are not only religious leaders but also seen as their scientists. They're the ones ultimatly responsible for their technology and military strength. Their religious responsibility is only a small part of what they do. Above all, they don't seem to be in the bussiness of converting anybody. It's not like any of their flock has a choice.

I'd rather have this represented through buildings and retinues than have them as priests walking around.

[Dogman55]

Jargon: Do the Lizardmen have any sort of history of rebellion or internal struggle? I think this should play a large part in how loyalty is used.

No, they do not. At the beginning of the world, the slann (Toad like creatures, five generations, with First generation being oldest) were spawned by the old ones. The Saurus (Soldiers), Skinks (Managters of daily life, skirmishers), and Kroxigor (Beasts of Burden, living weapons) were all spawned/created to obey the will of the old ones, and in turn the slann. The only history of any 'rebelling' if it can be called that, is when the Lizardmen's people were split between Lustria (The main continent) and the Southlands. The lizardmen of the southlands became primal and wild because the slann were not their to guide them.

So no, I wouldn't call degenerating into annimals rebelling. Lizardmen ftw!

[Raz]

This has probably already been brought up previously but, a trait or ancillary that has the effect of BattleSurgery, for Vampire Counts Generals.
Or something similar. It could be either a trait or ancillary depending on whether the General is more of a necromancer or has a necromancer as an ancillary. Either way it'd be a great asset.

[Jargon]

Nice idea Raz, it would make sense that Vampires can resurrect a portion of their army after battle. Maybe call the trait "The Dark Arts" or simply "Necromancy". I like the idea of having it as both a Necromancer ancillary and a trait. This would especially be useful for Vampire Counts, as the majority of their troops will be rubbish, altough if they have a 20 stack army of Blood Dragons, it would be a little overpowering for them to have too many come back.

As for the discussion of magic items, iv'e read somewhere that ancillaries can be transferred between generals, but I havn't found anything similiar for traits. Does anyone know if it is possible to swap traits, or if it can be modded? If not, then I guess all magic items should be made as ancillaries, so they can be swapped between characters.

[Meneldil]

Special items will be made as anciliaries I think. That's how RTW handled them, and that's aswell the easiest way to make them.

[monkian]

Ancillary for Empire Assassins

Magnin Throwing Knife - + 2/3 to Assassination Attempts.

(Got to love Beasts in Velvet)

[Bongfu]

Would be nice if we could have the Empire family members gain certain positions, like Rieksmarshal and such.

[Jargon]

Would be nice if we could have the Empire family members gain certain positions, like Rieksmarshal and such.

Check out the Anno Domini mod in Mods in Development, I think what they are doing would fit perfectly. This is one of the options the modhas or plans on having:

Titles

There will be kingdom titles, which could be acquired just by the faction leader, and regional titles (count, duke, sheik, etc) which will be given to generals once they'll garrison a settlement for some minimum turns. They will be transmitted to the son (maybe giving the son a trait... title_heir if the father has the ancillary title, removing the trait if the father would not have the ancillary title anymore). Have to test how could the AI behave, but I think I will sort it out.

So at the start of the game you could have a general named Boris Todbringer garrisoned in Middenheim with the title Elector Count of Middenland. When he dies, you move a new general to Middenheim, and after 4-5 turns he recieves the title.

[Jargon]

I finally got my Chaos Army Book back from a friend, and had a try at converting some of the information into traits. I think chaos generals should start as Exalted Champions, so they can first try to become a Lord of Chaos, and then move into Daemonhood through great victories and high levels of command.

General Character Traits:

Master of the Dark Tongue: (This lord has a mastery of the ritual language of chaos and dark sorcery. +1 Dread, +2 Authority)

Instability (This Chaos Lord is losing touch with the material world. -2 authority/loyalty, - tax/trade income)

Despoiler (This chaos general has not forgotten his days as a tribal horse rider. +1 command with cavalry)

Master of Mortals (This general has learnt to control his human subjects. Increased law and order)

Radiance of Dark Power (An aura of daemonic power emanates from this character. +1 dread, causes fear)

Spawn of Chaos (The Dark God’s gifts are starting to go out of control on this character. Increased campaign map movement points, +1 general hit points, -2 authority/loyalty, - tax/trade income)

Soul Hunger (His constant need for fresh souls effects his judgment. -1 loyalty, - public order)

Cloud of flies (A thick haze of flies hovering around this character makes it difficult for anyone to come near. Increased personal security, Decreased law and order)

Mark of Nurgle: (The fetid touch of the Lord of Decay has warped this characters skin and armour. +1 general Hitpoint, +1 Dread. Causes fear.)

Mark of Khorne (The Blood God smiles upon this frenzied warrior. +1 command when attacking, +1 command when assaulting, Decrease to tax/trade income)

Mark of Tzeentch (No idea how sorcery will be performed)

Mark of Slaanesh (Minions of the perverted Dark Prince God know no fear. Increase any stat that prevents troops from running in combat)

Lord of Chaos: (This general has been rewarded for his loyal service to the Chaos Gods. +1 command, +1 Dread, +1 Authority. Minimum command: 4, must have won a good victory)

Exalted Daemon: (This general has been rewarded by the Dark Gods with Daemonhood, the ultimate prize for every Chaos Lord. +2 Dread, +2 Authority, +1 Command when attacking. Cause fear. Minimum command: 6, Lord of Chaos, must win great victory)

Daemon Prince: (This terrifying Daemon has earned the respect of the Gods, who have made him an Unholy Prince. He truly is an awesome power to be feared. +4 Dread, +2 Authority +2 Command when attacking. Cause fear. Minimum command: 8, Exalted Daemon, historic victory)

[Casuir]

Causing fear cant be done with traits

[Jargon]

Thanks Casuir. I was thinking about the 'fear' that camels cause to horses. Can this system be used on infantry and archers as well? Since fear and terror are an important part of the Warhammer combat system, someone may want to look into ways of including this.

Can morale be effected by traits, or is it only influenced by a unit's experience? If the Mark of Slaneesh gives immunity to psychology, can there be a way to increase the morale of that unit? Or is there no connection possible between the two, and you have to increase the characters command instead?

[Casuir]

Infantry could cause fear in rtw, dont see why it would have been dropped. Its not something that can be added by a trait though, the effects traits can have are hardcoded and theres not many of them, heres the list ripped from the exe:
Combat_V_Religion_
Combat_V_Faction_
BattleSurgery
TrainingAnimalUnits
HitPoints
BodyguardValour
Looting
Law
Unrest
Squalor
ArtilleryCommand
GunpowderCommand
InfantryCommand
CavalryCommand
Fertility
TaxCollection
Mining
Farming
FootInTheDoor
LocalPopularity
Trading
Construction
TrainingAgents
TrainingUnits
LineOfSight
Electability
BribeResistance
Bribery
PublicSecurity
PersonalSecurity
NightBattle
SiegeEngineering
NavalCommand
Ambush
SiegeDefence
SiegeAttack
Defence
MovementPoints
TroopMorale
Loyalty
Subterfuge
Management
BodyguardSize
Generosity
Boldness
Disposition
Violence
Purity
Eligibility
Sabotage
Assassination
Authority
HeresyImmunity
Unorthodoxy
Piety
Finance
Charm
Influence
Command

[Jargon]

Thank you for the list, there are some interesting traits in there.

Anyone know what Boldness, Combat_V_Religion_, Combat_V_Faction_, FootInTheDoor, Management, Generosity, Boldness, Disposition, Violence, Purity and Eligibility do?

If Combat_V_Faction_ does what I imagine it sounds like, then it could be very useful. It could be used for factions that naturally hate each other, like Dwarves and Goblins, High Elves and Dark Elves, Chaos and Empire. Or any general in the game could get the trait Dwarfslayer, Orcslayer, Elfslayer etc. which gives them bonuses against those factions. They could be general traits that any faction general could pick up (excluding bonuses against their own faction, naturally).

Also, the Mark of Nurgle and Swarm of Flies traits should increase 'Squalor'. The Mark of Slaneesh should give a hefty increase to 'TroopMorale' to represent the immune to pyschology rule.