Charges, Total Frustration II

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

Getting your cavalry to charge is too difficult, it takes away the fun. It's also infuriating to see the AI do a successful charge up a slope. I had a charge seemingly broken up by a sole crossbowmen in a disordered unit. Disordered units breaking up charges doesn't make sense realistically. I have never been able to charge in the flank or in the rear, unlike Rome.

IMO you should get a charge if:

1. The terrain is relatively flat and without obstacles
2. The target is not running away from you (any other movement is ok)
3. You keep relative cohesion
4. Your unit isn't tired

There should be a tutorial in the next patch or somewhere

[RussianWinter]

I've usually managed success with the "enable guard mode" option checked, and making sure the unit is fully reformed before charge.

However, this still doesn't help when a unit is "screened" by say, dispersed routing crossbowen or a few skirmishers. All the more frustrating because the charge should logically trample them over.

Not sure if 1.2 fixes this, as I haven't had the option to really try much.

[TeutonicKnight]

I'm using 1.2, and I'm having a harder time with charges than I did with 1.1/Carl's fix.

Last night, I set up a "perfect" charge, and all my Templars did was walk up and start bonking with their swords. Very disappointing.

On the other hand, I've had occasional success now with the double-click method. At least they get there faster, and occasionally one or two will deploy a lance.

[Bob the Insane]

Last night, I set up a "perfect" charge, and all my Templars did was walk up and start bonking with their swords. Very disappointing.

I think if you command an attack from within the charge range (which is substantually longer in vanilla than in Carl's mod) then they will simply trot into contact and will not charge...

The same applies to infantry but with a shorter charge range obviously...

At least this is what I think I have observed

[Whacker]

The other thing that's really obnoxious is when you single click to charge, the units will walk up and when they hit the charge distance, they stop, THEN get going... From my reading, this isn't at all how it works. Oddly enough, with all it's historical inaccuracies and whatnaught, the heavy horse charge in Braveheart (where they get skewered on the poles, twice as long as a man, some men are longer than others!!) where they proceed in a "formation" and then lower/couch lances and go full tilt at a certain range is just about how it worked. My guess that the reason they did this is to let a unit "get back in formation" before charging (and getting out of formation in the process) due to how they implemented cohesion mechanics, which in M2TW are terrible. v1.2 has some slight improvements, but not much.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

i agree about the trampling russian winter that's what would happen in RTW. Can anyone charge a unit already engaged in the flank or rear?

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

I suspect when you single click to charge it is the unit's 'may charge impetuously' trait that makes the AI take over the charging.

I have ran over a long distance on the battlefield with my bodyguard unit into an enemy only to get a perfect charge. It seems quite out of the players control.

This should be fixed.

[crpcarrot]

Getting your cavalry to charge is too difficult, it takes away the fun. It's also infuriating to see the AI do a successful charge up a slope. I had a charge seemingly broken up by a sole crossbowmen in a disordered unit. Disordered units breaking up charges doesn't make sense realistically. I have never been able to charge in the flank or in the rear, unlike Rome.

IMO you should get a charge if:

1. The terrain is relatively flat and without obstacles
2. The target is not running away from you (any other movement is ok)
3. You keep relative cohesion
4. Your unit isn't tired

There should be a tutorial in the next patch or somewhere

i seem to get charges even when i'm not trying in 1.2 its tooe asy if u ask me. maybe you need a bit more patientce

[Foz]

i seem to get charges even when i'm not trying in 1.2 its tooe asy if u ask me. maybe you need a bit more patientce

...or a bit less single-clicking! Easy has been my experience too, but since this is the main function of heavy cavalry, I'm not going to gripe over being handed the easy button on a silver platter. The game should be about tactics, after all, not about having to constantly tweak units to make them do their jobs. Currently cav even go off most of the time in city streets if you make sure to put them in a formation slim enough to fit. They will fail on the crooked streets due to pathfinding making the cav turn a bit (many times I lined the cav up so they could get through running straight, but they decide to run along the crooks in the street anyway, wrecking the charge), but straight ones are pretty much a no-brainer.

[Doug-Thompson]

...or a bit less single-clicking!

This must be why I've never suffered much from this problem. I'd rather have my cavalry attack in time with a sloppy charge than get there too late while forming up. So I always hit "run" during the attack — and get decent charges anyway.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

I count roughly 8 persons agree with me, 8 are happy with the charge the way it is and 2 seem to have not taken a side.

Yesterday i got my first successful charge in the rear with 1.2. It seems that not only does the attacking unit need cohesion but so does the defender.

If this was made to stop cavalry-spamming in MP then why didn't they just make a limit to the type of units you can have in your army, like they do with miniature wargames army lists.

The requirement that the target be parallel to yours doesn't make sense realistically, why in real life would a cavalryman be unable to charge the flank (perpendicularly) or obliquely?

I played the tutorial to see if there were instructions but there isn't.

Maybe it's easier to charge in wedge formation. In any case this is unsatisfactory to quite a few gamers, so I think at the very least a step-through tutorial should be included, perhaps in 1.3 or the Kingdoms expansion. If not a revision of the process.

[Puzz3D]

I take exception to multiplayers being blamed for the way charge works in M2TW. No multiplayer wanted the excessive micromanagement of the weak/strong charge in the present system. Why would they since you can't pause multiplayer battles? There was nothing wrong with the way charge worked in mtw/vi v2.01. A strung out cav unit could still charge, but it wasn't as effective in routing the target unit because you didn't get a lot of kills within a single combat cycle. You could charge a unit whether that unit was stationary, moving or engaged and hit it from any angle, and do it from a walk or a run. What multiplayers requested was some kind of infantry that can stand up to a frontal cav charge, which is historically accurate, so that the battles don't become cavalry dominated.

[Whacker]

I take exception to multiplayers being blamed for the way charge works in M2TW. No multiplayer wanted the excessive micromanagement of the weak/strong charge in the present system. Why would they since you can't pause multiplayer battles? There was nothing wrong with the way charge worked in mtw/vi v2.01. A strung out cav unit could still charge, but it wasn't as effective in routing the target unit because you didn't get a lot of kills within a single combat cycle. You could charge a unit whether that unit was stationary, moving or engaged and hit it from any angle, and do it from a walk or a run. What multiplayers requested was some kind of infantry that can stand up to a frontal cav charge, which is historically accurate, so that the battles don't become cavalry dominated.

It's not really about blame Puzz, it's just the way the cards fell. Nobody is saying the MPers wanted things to be more complicated, I don't think anyone did. The thing MPers did want though, and were extremely vocal about, was a solution to cav spamming as you stated. This, unfortunately, was CA's response. The bottom line remains that many features and balance requests that MPers want, SPers do not want, and the TW series is predominantly SP and CA hasn't indicated to us now or in the future they will separate SP and MP mechanics.

In SP (which I play the most) I want my heavy cav insanely powerful in the charge as they were historically, my heavy spears\pikes\anti-cav polearms to mulch all cav when braced and prepared, dismounted knights to pwn pretty much all other infantry when on foot, my women loose and my liquor strong. That's my idea of "balance". MP is a different story though.

So you were a rear end virgin before that?

Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to get a good, penetrating rear impact? There's a lot of straining and effort involved here.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

I count roughly 9 persons agree with me, 6 are happy with the charge the way it is and 3 seem to have not taken a side.

Yesterday i got my first successful charge in the rear with 1.2. It seems that not only does the attacking unit need cohesion but so does the defender.

If this was made to stop cavalry-spamming in MP then why didn't they just make a limit to the type of units you can have in your army, like they do with miniature wargames army lists.

The requirement that the target be parallel to yours doesn't make sense realistically, why in real life would a cavalryman be unable to charge the flank (perpendicularly) or obliquely?

I played the tutorial to see if there were instructions but there isn't.

Maybe it's easier to charge in wedge formation. In any case this is unsatisfactory to quite a few gamers, so I think at the very least a step-through tutorial should be included, perhaps in 1.3 or the Kingdoms expansion. If not a revision of the process.

[rebelscum]

Yesterday i got my first successful charge in the rear

So you were a rear end virgin before that?

[Foz]

Wow... all joking aside, I can't believe you have such difficulty with it. I do insane things like set 3 waypoints via shift-double-click, and end with a 4th double-click on a unit, and my knights seem to still get their charges off just fine. 1 waypoint before the charge, to set the knights at an optimal position, is pretty much mandatory for me now. I can't even begin to imagine what you are doing to make it difficult... unless you simply start them too close to the target unit. The only thing I've found to really wreck a charge is if you're too close. Cav begin a charge at 45 meters IIRC, and to give them enough room to group up right you probably want at least 60. If you're charging from the rear you should have plenty of space, so if there's any question try giving your cav a much larger approach: they're fast enough that they cover the extra ground quickly anyway.

[crpcarrot]

@ OP are u looking for a devestating charge each time you do it?? is that what u mean when you say you cannot sucessfully charge?

cavalry seem pretty powerfull in the game right now anymore charge power and it will be a no brainer. all you have to do then is have a a couple of cavalry units in reserve and any time you look like losing a fight just send them in and instant rout the enemy. i dont want to go back to RTW instant routs. it may have been fixed by 1.5 but i'll never know cos stopped playing that way before.

i too like the idea of the one charge. maybe make the first cherge about 75% sucessfull irrespective of formation blah blah and then we get the usual charge. realistically most of the lances would have split or been dropped after the first charge anyway. and where the hell do they put them when they get into melee lol

[Fußball]

I myself am quite satisfied with charging. It is very simple to do, no difficulty at all. Though when I first played the game I was almost certain you could only charge once, that calvary would lose their lances after the first charge. It is a pity that is not the case.

So you were a rear end virgin before that?

Clowns: The tail-end of all jokes.

[Jambo]

Though when I first played the game I was almost certain you could only charge once, that calvary would lose their lances after the first charge. It is a pity that is not the case.

Now that would be an interesting mechanic. The charge with the lance would have to be devastating of course, but it would make knights rather more specialised. Not sure how the AI would cope...

[sapi]

Enough with the rear end jokes

And I like that 1-charge idea, though doubt that the AI could handle it. That one charge should demolish its target, though....

[Skott]

My opinion so far of 1.2 is that the cavalry charges are no better than they were in 1.1. Pathing is also still a huge problem. Whats funny is that with LtC Mod the cavalry worked better as far as the charges go. Pathing was still a problem but that was due to the main game itself. Why cant CA fix the charge problems and the pathing?

The fact that the modders are doing a better job at fixing the problems of the game tells me that either CA is plain lazy (which I dont think is exactly true although I think their Q&A side of things is sorely lacking) or that it speaks of just how poorly of a game maker CA is. I often find myself asking, "Why am I paying CA for a game when perhaps I should be paying the modders instead for a better game?"

And this problem isnt new with M2TW. RTW also had alot of bugs when it first launched. Alot of bugs that were very obvious that CA seemed to miss and release anyway. It was the RTR mod that made it truly fun to play IMHO.

To be honest this sort of track record doesnt instill me with confidence that I should run out and buy their next TW game. In fact I'm thinking I shouldnt even bother because there's nothing to suggest their business style is going to be any better.

My hat is off to the modders but it fustrates me that I'm paying CA for a game they cant make as well as the modders. Or at the very least fix as well as the modders.


/rant off

[econ21]

"Why am I paying CA for a game when perhaps I should be paying the modders instead for a better game?"

Good luck with that. By definition, a modder does not make a game from the bottom up. Unless you pay CA for the base game, the modders have no product.

I have every appreciation for the industry, initiative and intelligence of modders in tweaking the files to improve the gameplay and prettying up the graphics etc. But I can also imagine the vast amount of work required to produce a modern state of art game like TW from nothing. Modders can never have the resources to do that and the absence of serious clones (after how many years since Shogun) shows that rival commercial companies struggle too.

[Vladimir]

After reading this thread I paid more attention to my cavalry charges. I'm really impressed. They don't need to be in perfect formation until the point of impact to have lances lowered and get their awesome charge bonus. I like it!