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Thread: Charges, Total Frustration II

  1. #1

    Default Charges, Total Frustration II

    Getting your cavalry to charge is too difficult, it takes away the fun. It's also infuriating to see the AI do a successful charge up a slope. I had a charge seemingly broken up by a sole crossbowmen in a disordered unit. Disordered units breaking up charges doesn't make sense realistically. I have never been able to charge in the flank or in the rear, unlike Rome.

    IMO you should get a charge if:

    1. The terrain is relatively flat and without obstacles
    2. The target is not running away from you (any other movement is ok)
    3. You keep relative cohesion
    4. Your unit isn't tired

    There should be a tutorial in the next patch or somewhere

  2. #2

    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    I've usually managed success with the "enable guard mode" option checked, and making sure the unit is fully reformed before charge.

    However, this still doesn't help when a unit is "screened" by say, dispersed routing crossbowen or a few skirmishers. All the more frustrating because the charge should logically trample them over.

    Not sure if 1.2 fixes this, as I haven't had the option to really try much.

  3. #3
    Slaying Pagans near you! Member TeutonicKnight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    I'm using 1.2, and I'm having a harder time with charges than I did with 1.1/Carl's fix.

    Last night, I set up a "perfect" charge, and all my Templars did was walk up and start bonking with their swords. Very disappointing.

    On the other hand, I've had occasional success now with the double-click method. At least they get there faster, and occasionally one or two will deploy a lance.

  4. #4
    Ricardus Insanusaum Member Bob the Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by TeutonicKnight

    Last night, I set up a "perfect" charge, and all my Templars did was walk up and start bonking with their swords. Very disappointing.
    I think if you command an attack from within the charge range (which is substantually longer in vanilla than in Carl's mod) then they will simply trot into contact and will not charge...

    The same applies to infantry but with a shorter charge range obviously...

    At least this is what I think I have observed

  5. #5
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    The other thing that's really obnoxious is when you single click to charge, the units will walk up and when they hit the charge distance, they stop, THEN get going... From my reading, this isn't at all how it works. Oddly enough, with all it's historical inaccuracies and whatnaught, the heavy horse charge in Braveheart (where they get skewered on the poles, twice as long as a man, some men are longer than others!!) where they proceed in a "formation" and then lower/couch lances and go full tilt at a certain range is just about how it worked. My guess that the reason they did this is to let a unit "get back in formation" before charging (and getting out of formation in the process) due to how they implemented cohesion mechanics, which in M2TW are terrible. v1.2 has some slight improvements, but not much.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    i agree about the trampling russian winter that's what would happen in RTW. Can anyone charge a unit already engaged in the flank or rear?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    I suspect when you single click to charge it is the unit's 'may charge impetuously' trait that makes the AI take over the charging.

    I have ran over a long distance on the battlefield with my bodyguard unit into an enemy only to get a perfect charge. It seems quite out of the players control.

    This should be fixed.

  8. #8
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    The real answer to this and the root cause goes back to multiplayer vs. single player. Going back to CA's earlier comments before the game was released and slightly after, it was revealed that the new charging mechanics were implemented mostly due to the MPer's complaints about cav spamming in MP games, the new charge mechanics were an attempt to "balance" that out. Part of the problem is that many (most, if the impressions I am getting from the overall community are accurate) of us SPers hate it, and don't want half of the things that the MPers want.

    The real answer and the win-win situation is that the SP and MP game mechanics should have been separated awhile back. Hopefully this will be the case in the next game.

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  9. #9
    Ricardus Insanusaum Member Bob the Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    You can do a charge without the stop pause thing...

    Allow you unit to walk towards to the target and shortly before the charge range you instruct the unit to start running. Now when it hits charge range it will transition from run to charge without pausing... I picked this up from observing the AI...

  10. #10
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Insane
    You can do a charge without the stop pause thing...

    Allow you unit to walk towards to the target and shortly before the charge range you instruct the unit to start running. Now when it hits charge range it will transition from run to charge without pausing... I picked this up from observing the AI...
    By that logic, you should only get the 10% charge. Honestly though I can't tell that much of a difference between the 10% charges and the single click charges now in v1.2, which leads me to believe that it's either A> broken or B> been removed from the game. Then again I'm running the game on my horrible work laptop with all settings as low as they can get, so it can be hard to tell.

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  11. #11
    Ricardus Insanusaum Member Bob the Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    hmm... good point...

    I will play some more...

    Edit: After messing around with some Templars against a unit of Highland rabble (on defense) I found that the ten percent charge is still in, but it you you need to make a bit of an effort to disrupt the formation of your cavalry (or any other unit I imagine) before giving the attack order. If you simply run stright at the enemy so you unit maintains it's formation then it will charge normally...
    Last edited by Bob the Insane; 05-07-2007 at 22:57.

  12. #12
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Insane
    Edit: After messing around with some Templars against a unit of Highland rabble (on defense) I found that the ten percent charge is still in, but it you you need to make a bit of an effort to disrupt the formation of your cavalry (or any other unit I imagine) before giving the attack order. If you simply run stright at the enemy so you unit maintains it's formation then it will charge normally...
    I am actually rethinking this a bit. The way CA described it, it wasn't exactly linked to single or double clicking, someone else said that (positive it was a CA person) but I don't remember who it was. Here's the actual text from the blog post:

    The triggers for a formed (powerful) charge include:
    • Line up the cavalry parallel to the target
    • Utilize a long straight run up toward the target
    • Prioritize stationary targets as moving targets may result in a last second turn and reform
    The triggers for an unformed (weak) charge include:
    • The unit is spread out just before charging
    • The charge is issued while too close to the target
    • The charge is issued when the unit isn't facing the target
    • The player changes direction just before the charge• The target moves and turns just before being hit
    At this point I'm not sure that the single vs. double click is valid anymore, it appears that it might now just adhere to the above rules is all that's needed. If you can keep your cav in formation while running (which is damn hard to do) and single or double click, you'll get a "powerful" charge.

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    How can you tell what the charge range is? It seems to be different every time I do it, judging by when the horn sounds.

    I've given up on single clicking; it just doesn't work. As they're sauntering to the target, it usually moves away, resulting in no charge at all. Double clicking gets me a well-formed charge about half the time anyway.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker
    I am actually rethinking this a bit. The way CA described it, it wasn't exactly linked to single or double clicking, someone else said that (positive it was a CA person) but I don't remember who it was. Here's the actual text from the blog post:

    The triggers for a formed (powerful) charge include:
    • Line up the cavalry parallel to the target
    • Utilize a long straight run up toward the target
    • Prioritize stationary targets as moving targets may result in a last second turn and reform
    The triggers for an unformed (weak) charge include:
    • The unit is spread out just before charging
    • The charge is issued while too close to the target
    • The charge is issued when the unit isn't facing the target
    • The player changes direction just before the charge• The target moves and turns just before being hit
    At this point I'm not sure that the single vs. double click is valid anymore, it appears that it might now just adhere to the above rules is all that's needed. If you can keep your cav in formation while running (which is damn hard to do) and single or double click, you'll get a "powerful" charge.
    I think we had this discussion in another thread about that same quote, and I have rethought the whole thing, too, based upon what the one psoter said (I forget his name).

    I think it's just a function of the factors all being right. I think people may have had more success single clicking rather than double because it probably keeps unit cohesion better and allows the unit to reorganize when the enemy moves, etc.

    The more I played it, I did see a few times where I double clicked and got a good charge off. I think that, from my experience, there is just a much better chance of all of the factors being in your favor if you single click...

  15. #15
    Masticator of Oreos Member Foz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by gardibolt
    How can you tell what the charge range is? It seems to be different every time I do it, judging by when the horn sounds.

    I've given up on single clicking; it just doesn't work. As they're sauntering to the target, it usually moves away, resulting in no charge at all. Double clicking gets me a well-formed charge about half the time anyway.
    If you single-click and then run, it's far more consistent than that. The single click means the unit, usually at a stop, gets a few non-running moments to get back in formation (they take off at vastly different times for me usually, so the unit is immediately messed up when it starts marching). Then when they recover formation, switch to running. It's a seamless transition, and they stay in formation generally. If you have some space to work with, though, you can lazily double-click, and they recover the formation in time to hit the charge. The single-click-then-run is more useful for shorter areas where they won't recover from the initial jostling if you just double-click.

    I too gave up on single-click charges a long time ago, they obviously aren't the deciding factor in whether or not your charge goes off. All it does is make your knights take forever getting to their target...

    I've also had some luck using shift-double-click to set waypoints. Mostly, to pull out and recharge with cavalry. If you shift-double-click a suitable distance away from the enemy unit, then continuing to hold shift, double-click on the enemy unit and release shift, you can generally get your knights to pull out and recharge without even stopping at all. It sometimes looks really messy, but I've had good luck getting the charges to go off anyway. It may have something to do with the unit never stopping its motion.


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  16. #16
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    You know what I did once that was really funny? I had a depleted elephant artillery unit (1 elephant and its rider, no arty) and ran it into the enemy townsquare. Charged the unit at the far end, disengaged for a meter or so and charged the unit at the other end of town square seamlessly and rinse/repeat.
    By the time the elephant died, it had taken some 140 enemies with it :D
    The townsquare was very crowded though, but its kind of funny that you can charge while engaged. Works for general cav too btw, just that those tend to rout when down to few men.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    charges are perfect now. devestating versus light and missile infantry. good against heavy infantry and no good versus spears( the way it should be) not really but since theyve ruined pikes in the game its good to have something that can fight it out with cav and still hold their own against infantry.

  18. #18

    Wink Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Well, logic says, a full charge with lances and all should be real hard, and I would say more or less require a flat land (or slight downslope). What is the real issue here is that the cavalry has the advantage of height and speed against other units, which is extremely usefull when units loose cohesion or face directions other then the cavalry approach.

    Charges with lances did not mean to slaughter all the enemies. What it was for was to disrupt the enemy. Multiple charges were possible with supporters close by. A galloping knight with his sword at hand is a very dangerous opponent even without the lance. What is stupid in the game is having around 50 knights in one units, charging in 4-5 rows. What kind of an attack is that? The knights who follow the front line will trample or hit his own men, cause whatever the opponent is, you just can not keep running through them like they are made of cotton. Slowing down and even stopping is inevitable.

    The real problem in the game is not the charge, but the normal attacks, where a bunch of cavs fight the front guys, others waiting behind. They should move in, push units away, if possible open paths for others and so. Height is a great advantage in medieval battles, so use them, use their horses massive bodies. Infantry on the other hand should form islands themselves, clutching together to limit the knights movement.

    I realy hope the second patch is worth it...

  19. #19
    Friendly Resident Knight Member Fußball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Charges are not difficult at all, you just have to know what to do. My policy as follows:

    1. First off I start by, as was stated by CA, keeping my unit as parallel as possible to the desired target.

    2. Once I have gotten to the desired distance to begin preparing my charge I simply click on the enemy, using walk if I need the unit to march slowly for reformation or what not, or run if I need them to meet the enemy quickly.

    3. If my unit is marching slowly instead of quickly I wait until my unit is within around 50 game meters away from the enemy, click run, and watch the fun!

    After you have used charges enough it should never be a problem to perform a charge anywhere in good conditions. The only time I have ever had the slightest trouble is when my men are fighting in arid/desert terrain. And the only problem there is if the enemy is situated on a hilly area and/or there are many rocks blocking a good path to charge.

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  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member Jambo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Firstly, single click vs double click doesn't make any difference to charge. Single click just walks a cavalry unit to the charging distance, double click runs. People might get the impression single click is better simply because the unit is more likely to keep in formation and adjust to follow a moving target.

    You're more likely to get a successful charge if you do the following:

    1. Ensure your cavarly is facing the target and likely to hit the target as a whole, i.e. without clipping a corner and more importantly without clipping another unit en route.
    2. Ensure your cavalry is in formation and not strung out or already engaged/ partly engaged with another unit.
    3. Ensure that when you give the order, the cavalry unit is not too close to the target, i.e. within its own charging range.
    4. Ensure the terrain is suitable, i.e. flat and without obstacles like trees or large rocks, which will interfere with formation. Steep slopes are also not conducive to good charges and snow tends to slow a cavalry unit down lessening its impact.

    Having said all that I think it's a shame CA toned down the mass of the mounts, and made the mass of armoured cavalry no different from that of a bareback pony. By doing so they've lessened the impact and ability of cavalry to punch through infantry ranks. I would have much prefered them to tinker with the raw attack or charge values rather than reducing the mass.
    Last edited by Jambo; 05-08-2007 at 11:59.
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  21. #21
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Cavalry that is engaged can still (devastatingly) change. Tested that :p
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  22. #22
    Member Member crpcarrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Zoidfarb
    Getting your cavalry to charge is too difficult, it takes away the fun. It's also infuriating to see the AI do a successful charge up a slope. I had a charge seemingly broken up by a sole crossbowmen in a disordered unit. Disordered units breaking up charges doesn't make sense realistically. I have never been able to charge in the flank or in the rear, unlike Rome.

    IMO you should get a charge if:

    1. The terrain is relatively flat and without obstacles
    2. The target is not running away from you (any other movement is ok)
    3. You keep relative cohesion
    4. Your unit isn't tired

    There should be a tutorial in the next patch or somewhere
    i seem to get charges even when i'm not trying in 1.2 its tooe asy if u ask me. maybe you need a bit more patientce
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  23. #23
    Masticator of Oreos Member Foz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by crpcarrot
    i seem to get charges even when i'm not trying in 1.2 its tooe asy if u ask me. maybe you need a bit more patientce
    ...or a bit less single-clicking! Easy has been my experience too, but since this is the main function of heavy cavalry, I'm not going to gripe over being handed the easy button on a silver platter. The game should be about tactics, after all, not about having to constantly tweak units to make them do their jobs. Currently cav even go off most of the time in city streets if you make sure to put them in a formation slim enough to fit. They will fail on the crooked streets due to pathfinding making the cav turn a bit (many times I lined the cav up so they could get through running straight, but they decide to run along the crooks in the street anyway, wrecking the charge), but straight ones are pretty much a no-brainer.
    Last edited by Foz; 05-08-2007 at 16:19.


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    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by Foz
    ...or a bit less single-clicking!
    This must be why I've never suffered much from this problem. I'd rather have my cavalry attack in time with a sloppy charge than get there too late while forming up. So I always hit "run" during the attack — and get decent charges anyway.
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    I count roughly 8 persons agree with me, 8 are happy with the charge the way it is and 2 seem to have not taken a side.

    Yesterday i got my first successful charge in the rear with 1.2. It seems that not only does the attacking unit need cohesion but so does the defender.

    If this was made to stop cavalry-spamming in MP then why didn't they just make a limit to the type of units you can have in your army, like they do with miniature wargames army lists.

    The requirement that the target be parallel to yours doesn't make sense realistically, why in real life would a cavalryman be unable to charge the flank (perpendicularly) or obliquely?

    I played the tutorial to see if there were instructions but there isn't.

    Maybe it's easier to charge in wedge formation. In any case this is unsatisfactory to quite a few gamers, so I think at the very least a step-through tutorial should be included, perhaps in 1.3 or the Kingdoms expansion. If not a revision of the process.
    Last edited by Cousin Zoidfarb; 05-08-2007 at 16:36.

  26. #26
    Friendly Resident Knight Member Fußball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by FactionHeir
    Cavalry that is engaged can still (devastatingly) change. Tested that :p
    It is actually surprising the very small amount of distance sometimes needed to trigger a charge. I can recount several times where I have charged an enemy formation, fallen back maybe only 10 game meters and clicked on the enemy again just to have my men grab their lances from thin air and charge again.

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  27. #27
    The Idle Inquisitor Member rebelscum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by Seikales
    Charges with lances did not mean to slaughter all the enemies. What it was for was to disrupt the enemy.
    Historically it was to make the enemy turn and rout.

    Cavalry Officer: Ok chaps, now you are all 'finally' back in line, this time were going to get it right .. *looks questionly at rabble of horsemen* ... yes. We form up neatly opposite the enemy. We then start trotting slowly towards them. When we get within range . I will blow the horn .. and .. we charge ..
    Cavalryman #1: erm.. Sir .. Sir ,
    Cavalry Officer: Yes, what is it now*sighs with exasperation*
    Cavalryman #1: How do we know when we are in range ...?
    Cavalry Officer: Like I said before .. when I blow the horn ..
    Cavalryman #2: And that sounds like?
    Cavalry Officer: Like a horn dammit .. listen .. *tarantaraaa*
    *Half the cavalry take off running and in multiple directions*
    Cavalryman #1: Sir .. sir. Do we charge now then?
    Cavalry Officer: *sobs* ..
    Last edited by rebelscum; 05-08-2007 at 17:05.
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  28. #28

    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    I take exception to multiplayers being blamed for the way charge works in M2TW. No multiplayer wanted the excessive micromanagement of the weak/strong charge in the present system. Why would they since you can't pause multiplayer battles? There was nothing wrong with the way charge worked in mtw/vi v2.01. A strung out cav unit could still charge, but it wasn't as effective in routing the target unit because you didn't get a lot of kills within a single combat cycle. You could charge a unit whether that unit was stationary, moving or engaged and hit it from any angle, and do it from a walk or a run. What multiplayers requested was some kind of infantry that can stand up to a frontal cav charge, which is historically accurate, so that the battles don't become cavalry dominated.

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  29. #29

    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    I count roughly 9 persons agree with me, 6 are happy with the charge the way it is and 3 seem to have not taken a side.

    Yesterday i got my first successful charge in the rear with 1.2. It seems that not only does the attacking unit need cohesion but so does the defender.

    If this was made to stop cavalry-spamming in MP then why didn't they just make a limit to the type of units you can have in your army, like they do with miniature wargames army lists.

    The requirement that the target be parallel to yours doesn't make sense realistically, why in real life would a cavalryman be unable to charge the flank (perpendicularly) or obliquely?

    I played the tutorial to see if there were instructions but there isn't.

    Maybe it's easier to charge in wedge formation. In any case this is unsatisfactory to quite a few gamers, so I think at the very least a step-through tutorial should be included, perhaps in 1.3 or the Kingdoms expansion. If not a revision of the process.
    Last edited by Cousin Zoidfarb; 05-08-2007 at 17:02.

  30. #30
    The Idle Inquisitor Member rebelscum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charges, Total Frustration II

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Zoidfarb
    Yesterday i got my first successful charge in the rear
    So you were a rear end virgin before that?
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