The Swiss Cheese Experiment: No More Swordsmen Wannabes

[dopp]

The M2TW pikeman is a confused and neglected individual. Despite the effectiveness of his historical counterpart, the M2TW pikeman clearly hates his job. Deep inside each pikeman lurks an aspiring swordsman, just waiting for the right opportunity to manifest himself and take control. This opportunity is first contact with the enemy. Discarding his hated and despised polearm, the pikeman invariably whips out a REAL MAN's weapon, his trusty sword, and proceeds to show off his moves. Unfortunately, he has usually neglected to bring a shield along as well. Combined with his total lack of footwork, this shortens his life-expectancy in melee to considerably less than the average peasant.

Numerous pleas have been made on behalf of the poor pikeman's dilemma, but no help is forthcoming. Many prefer to ignore his existence, considering his inclusion in the game as "ahistorical" and preferring to concentrate on tweaking more characterful units such as axemen and longbows. Others justify his confusion as part of an RPS system where swords beat pikes. Faced with the superiority of swords against his unwieldly pike, they argue, it is not surprising that the pikeman feels insecure and adopts the sword himself. Yet others point out that pike formations invariably lose cohesion or get outflanked in the melee, perhaps overlooking the fact that pikemen often become swordsmen almost immediately after initial contact with any kind of enemy. Finally, some contend that pikemen are only meant to check charges to the front and little else, otherwise they would be too powerful. This is perhaps unfair to the poor pikeman, since a closer observation would reveal that even a charge against braced pikemen forming spear wall will kill as many pikemen on initial contact as chargers.

Stern and ruthless tyrant that I am, I have attempted to correct this confusion by confiscating all swords from my Swiss mercs. No pikeman is to carry anything even remotely resembling a sword, upon pain of prolonged and agonizing death. Despite much wailing and gnashing of teeth, the results are incontestable. Chained to their pikes, my men have no choice but to vent their frustration and shame by poking at the enemy, killing anything that approaches them from the front. Kept at bay by the constantly-stabbing pikes, the enemy has no choice but to try and outflank, as swordsmen working their way past the first few rows of pikes will only claim a few victims before being impaled by those deeper within the formation. Even outflanking is ineffective unless the pikemen are already engaged to the front as the entire formation just turns on the spot to poke in the appropriate direction.

This tweak just replaced the pikemen's secondary weapon entry in the export_descr_unit file with the line from other units that don't have secondary weapons (ironically, I copied and pasted it from the Swordsmen Militia entry). This tricks the pikemen into not using their swords, even though they have the mesh and animations for it.

I am fully convinced that taking this firm and uncompromising stand is the right course of action and encourage all commanders to at least consider doing the same. In conclusion, "No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!"

Disclaimer: I am not bashing CA. M2TW is a great game. This quickfix is for those few hardy "ahistorical" souls who feel that M2TW pikemen need some tweaking so they can enjoy using them ingame. I think there are a few such people out there (waves), if I'm wrong then sorry for wasting everyone's time.

Further Disclaimer: If you have mastered the art of pikemen deployment already and think that I just need to learn2playnoob, then good for you. If you have always hated pikemen and want them all dead, then ignore this fix as you would ignore them ingame. If you feel that pikemen are balanced or "historical" already then you can skip this fix too. Please do not assail me with your SCA pike experiences, I just wanted to see my pikemen actually poke something, someplace, sometime.

[Shahed]

BUUUUUUAAAAAAHAAHHAHAHHAAHHA !!!!

Man I almost choked on my (late) lunch reading that post.

Can you fix spears as well please... so that they can hold up to cavalry. Pikes are terrible right now, it's really funny (in a tragic way) to see them all formed up with pointy sticks and just charge straight into them and they die like flies.

Please post your fix in point form. I'd apply it.

[Bob the Insane]

Nice post... It is an interesting problem...

I have not played with pike enough yet to give a considered opinion but it is a neat solution...

[JeffBag]

When you take them off spear wall formation, do they switch to swords?

[Beefeater]

Lovely comic writing there dopp!

[AussieGiant]

Fantastic!!!!

[Kraxis]

Incidentally this is the direct opposite of the fix for the German Spearmen in RTW...

Anyway I have never really thought about this. But now I can't help but wonder how pikes do on walls... I remember how hard it was to push Flemmings off the walls in Antwerpen, with pikes it can only get worse.

[Zoltan]

Good post doop, but did it actually make the pikemen behave as they should! Show us some results! figures! rarrrr!

[Shahed]

I posted a video of an early M2:TW trailer, and the pikes in the that were awesome, killing a lot of cav in the charge. Can't find the link now.

It's a good question, do they actually hold up in spear wall or do they resort to fighting as independents ?

[Dave1984]

Nice idea.

Just put it to the test. Works very well indeed, It'll certainly be a fixture in my games from now on.

One thing I noticed- the pikes still seem to lose a little cohesion and some pop into their "duel" mode. They still do better out of it than they did with their swords, but it looks odd them trying to stab the bad guy when the pike is already halfway through him! ;)

[Hashashiyyin]

I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.

But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)

[antisocialmunky]

Technically you could classify Phillip III's Macedonian Phalangites - and those of the post-Alexander Hellenic Kingdoms - as Pikemen.

If M2:TW is a update on the RTW engine, then why are there so many problems with unit AI and such? I'd really like to see a fix before I buy this game.

[nameless]

Awhile ago I ran a test seeing what was best in dealing with the Aztecs as the Sicilians and found that pike militia were the best on VH settings.

This was about 6 pikemen vs. 10 Aztec warrirors. All infantry.

The Aztecs charged and in 4-5 ranks deep the pikemen were able to effectively hold the Aztecs at bay. Some got through but eventually were repulsed when some units switched to swords to repel them, then went back to pikes afterwards. The pikemen suffered little casualities but I can't say the same for the Aztecs.

Against cavalry their still the best option so I don't see the problem with them as their suppose to be defensive units in the game. I remember in RTW when everyone complained about the invincibility of the phalanx.

If M2:TW is a update on the RTW engine, then why are there so many problems with unit AI and such? I'd really like to see a fix before I buy this game.

It's not. The problems are being blown out of proportion with people trying to find bugs or problems when there really aren't any or exploding minor ones. We have people that say this and others that say otherwise.

If your that concerned, see if you can borrow a copy and play a little to see if you like it. Of course there's nothing wrong waiting. I bought RTW a year after it was released. And still love it but I love MTW2 more.

[SMZ]

Deep inside each pikeman lurks an aspiring swordsman, just waiting for the right opportunity to manifest himself and take control. (...) Discarding his hated and despised polearm, the pikeman invariably whips out a REAL MAN's weapon, his trusty sword, and proceeds to show off his moves.

^^ my laugh for the day

=]

[Hashashiyyin]

Big Tex-

I've been trying to find evidence to back up what I stated (I only said it because I read it somewhere and I'm currently going through my "warfare history" books looking for where I read it). It appears you are correct, that the romans developed the sword, pilum, and scutum, as a counter to the gauls (Celts) fighting style. I did, however, find some quotes to back up what I said. Most of the information I can find about the fall of the phalanx has to do with the battles at Cynoscephalae and Pydna which do not include a troop count (estimates point toward a superiority in the Phalanx favor, but this seems more speculation then historic evidence). here it goes:

"Individually the Celts (Guals) were bigger than the Italians and had superior weapons produced by the best iron workers in Europe. The Celtic sword was capable of cutting right through the Italian shield. En masse the Celtic charge was so ferocious that the Italians could not withstand it.

It was to deal with the last two problems that the unique combination of gladius (sword), pilum (heavy javelin) and scutum (body shield) was developed. It was this system that conquered the Mediterranean world in the first and second centuries BC."

-Peter Conolly

"The Romans suffered disaster after disaster, losing nearly half a million men in the half century between 260 and 210 BC, but finally they emerged as masters of the western Mediterranean. The Celts were driven from the Po Valley and Greece was invaded during the early years of the seconds century BC. In two great battles, Cynoscephalae in 197 and Pydna in 168 BS, the supposedly invincible phalanx of the Macedonians was cut to pieces by the roman legions. This greatly astonished the Greek world and proved conclusively that the sword was mightier then the spear."

-Peter Conolly

"Thus, the phalanx was at its weakest when the enemy possessed large numbers of lighter and more flexible troops and it had no such supporting troops to match them with. An example of this is the battle of Lechaeum, where an Athenian army led by Iphicrates, containing a considerable proportion of light missile troops armed with javelins and bows, succeeded in routing an entire Spartan mora (a Spartan unit numbering anywhere from five to nine hundred hoplites). Iphicrates accomplished this by wearing the Spartans down with repeated attacks by his peltasts (skirmishers), causing a general disarray in the Spartan ranks and an eventual rout when the Spartans spotted Athenian heavy infantry reinforcements trying to flank them by boat.

It was due to the two abovementioned weaknesses that after the Peloponnesian War the phalanx did not perform very well unless it was deployed as part of a combined-arms force. When the phalanx was employed without cavalry and/or light infantry support, it could not cope with the greater tactical flexibility of the Roman legion. It was dethroned from its prestigious position among ancient tactical formations after the battle of Pydna (168 BC), after which Macedonia and Hellas were made Roman provinces. Some legends, however (with little supporting historical evidence) state that a Spartan phalanx drove off marauding Visigoths after the Battle of Adrianople in AD 378."

-Wikipedia (I know, I know! Wikipedia isn't a great source but the material I quoted isn't under dispute at this time, but sill has no references!)

Anyway, not trying to start a flame war or anything, just trying to get to the bottom of the historic falling out of the Phalanx.

[BigTex]

It was due to the two abovementioned weaknesses that after the Peloponnesian War the phalanx did not perform very well unless it was deployed as part of a combined-arms force. When the phalanx was employed without cavalry and/or light infantry support, it could not cope with the greater tactical flexibility of the Roman legion. It was dethroned from its prestigious position among ancient tactical formations after the battle of Pydna (168 BC), after which Macedonia and Hellas were made Roman provinces. Some legends, however (with little supporting historical evidence) state that a Spartan phalanx drove off marauding Visigoths after the Battle of Adrianople in AD 378."

A hard phalangite/pike formation requires a flexible cavalry flank to work, it must force the enemy into the center of it to win. With the loss of the companions and other cavalry forces they lost the ability to pin and force the enemy to the front of their pikes. The romans were finally able to use their advantage of manueverability and hit their flanks and rears. But even then the phalangite cuased massive losses to the romans.

Again it was the steady decay of the companions and other horsemen that caused it to fail. Through the constant war's between the diodoche the elites of the macedonians had steadily been killed off most of the companions, and other elites. The steady emmigration from macedonia to other diodoche also hastened their decay.

As far as the skutum, gladius, and pilum combination. It was transfered to the romans from constant fighting with the guals, and spanish.

Part of the reason the phalanx fell out of favor was the steady decay of the greek world. The use of it was nearly forgotten about as the barbarian incurssions swept across europe. By the time of the dark age the old greek tactics were all but forgotten. The romans had steadily changed their tactics to that of nearly all cavalry based quick reaction forces. Most heavy infantry started to decline also. It wasnt until the reniassance brought the surge of classical greek writings did you see the phalanx finally return. It stayed for quite awhile also. Wasnt until the gun had finally become powerful and self reliant that it ceased to be used.

As an intresting side note, it hasnt been until recently that infantry has been really armored since the Medievel era. The amount of armor that has come into use in the past decades for infantry is quite amazing. With the steady use of urban tactics and increase in weapons for the infantry it would seem the that heavy infantry is coming back, all be it not in the same form. History has funny ways of repeating itself.

[Blademun]

I've always found it a very effective tactic to put a 2-rank-deep unit of infantry (such as zwei handers) right in front of the pikes so as to soften enemy charges and allow the pike wall to stand. The combined force of infantry in front, and push of pike from behind, always routs infantry quickly in a head-on encounter, and the pikes keep their formation as they should.

If you got them, mixing in Hand Gunners works awesome too. I just fought a battle using Handgunners/Pike Milita and was astonished to see what happened. The infantry/knights got stopped just inches away from the hand gunners by the pikes, and then the hand gunners all fired point blank into the enemy. Mass rout ensues. Awesome.

[Whacker]

It's not. The problems are being blown out of proportion with people trying to find bugs or problems when there really aren't any or exploding minor ones. We have people that say this and others that say otherwise.

Outstanding troll. So anyone who has opinions that don't jive with yours is blowing stuff out of proportion?

@ Dopp

Holy crap! I just did what you said for the Scotish Noble Pikeman, copied over the lines from unit w/no secondary attack... This is on huge unit size, medium, and I have vaultdweller's two-hander fix installed.

They absolutely TORE up French mounted Sergeants, French mounted Chivalric Knights, AND Dismounted French Chivalric Knights!!! I think they lost maybe 20 guys to the DCKs, who had 10 left when they routed. If you do it like you said, leave them braced in formation with guard mode on, then turn off guard mode after impact, they will attack much better in the general melee. Of course as someone stated seeing the animations with pikes swinging merrily through their cohorts doesn't look very .... natural.. and they are a bit overpowered, but at least we have a unit that can now reasonably stand up to cav charges.

[BigTex]

I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.

But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)

The romans used pikes in the early years. The reason they used swords is not because they were more effective, but they were far more influenced by the guals military techniques then the greeks and macedonians. The romans suffered horendous losses to pike formations. The fact that they won is not becuase they had the better tool, they won only because they had the better man power. Time and time again the romans were soundly and massively defeated by pike armies, but when the early romans lossed a battle that merely pissed them more off. They'd send 2 times the troops after a loss.

Possibly the 2 only reasons the romans managed to get through macedonia and greece is the massive depopulation of the region becuase of wars and emmigration to other Diodoche. They also nearly completely lost their cavalry wing of the army. A hard phalangite/pike formation requires a flexible cavalry flank to work, it must force the enemy into the center of it to win. With the loss of the companions and other cavalry forces they lost the ability to pin and force the enemy to the front of their pikes. The romans were finally able to use their advantage of manueverability and hit their flanks and rears. But even then the phalangite cuased massive losses to the romans.

Pikes are a good example of the Reniassance. With the rise of heavy cavalry again the pike was a good weapon to pear it with. Not to mention they also were good at protecting the musketeers. The pike has always been a far supperior weapon then the sword when in a proper formation and you have forced the enemy to your front.

[IvarrWolfsong]

I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.

But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)

Actually, Medieval pikes came into vogue well before firearms were appearing on the battle fields. The pike formation was, for poorer folks (Swiss or Scots) or people without a warrior culture (Flanders), the answer to the cavalry charge. Bannockburn, Golden Spurs, Otterburn and the dominance of Swiss Pike tactics demonstrated the superiority of pike formations over not only cavalry, but men at arms using mixed melee weapons.

Rather than bringing the pike back inro prominence, firearms served to reduce its use. As firearms became more reliable and cheaper, the ratio of pike to gunners decreased until finally the bayonette put the last pikemen on social security .

The counter to pikemen is (and was)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

missle troops

. Shoot them to pieces before you engage them. Compare Otterburn, where Hotspur raced up to engage the Scots before his bowmen had arrived and was thoroughly trounced against Halidon Hill where the English faced nearly the same force and crushed them after setting up a nice crossfire.

On a more game specific note, the difference between the uber hoplites of RTW and pikemen in M2TW is armor and defence. The reason those hoplites were unstoppable tanks was because arrows were useless against them. I would literally soak up all the enemies arrows with my Sacred Band and take very few losses. Try that with M2TW pikes .

[Whacker]

On a more game specific note, the difference between the uber hoplites of RTW and pikemen in M2TW is armor and defence. The reason those hoplites were unstoppable tanks was because arrows were useless against them. I would literally soak up all the enemies arrows with my Sacred Band and take very few losses. Try that with M2TW pikes .

Methinks this was because of the shield effect. Hoplites and Pikemen in RTW carried shields which added to their defensive capabilities, whereas pike units in M2TW don't. And yes, I remember the damn Sacred Band and Spartans, they were all but impervious to arrows. That coupled with the 1.5 buttspike bug just made them that much tougher to deal with. Best way to beat em was a healthy dose of pila, followed by a left-flank charge with the sword-based infantry.

[General Zhukov]

Interesting topic. Great forums too.

Was it the issue that pikemen were performing poorly that prompted the mod, or was it an ascetic desire to see more stabbing animations that coincidentally led to improved performance of the troops?

I don't have much experience using pikes in actual campaign battles, but as to performance, in some combat tests my Portugese pike militia fared well against French Lancers and decently against HRE Dismounted Feudal Knights.

Spread in long 2-rank line, the pikeman killed ~20 lancers on contact, with maybe 10-15 casualties. In the ensuing melee, sometimes all the pikemen would draw swords, and sometimes those in the rear would continue to stab forward while others drew swords. In any event, about half the time this lowly 150 florin unit would run the lancers off the field. The key, I think, is to have lines thin enough and wide enough so that all pikes are down, and crucially, so that the enemy cavalry is not able to wrap around and encircle following the initial crash.

Following this, I stacked up my trusty Portugese pikes against a unit of HRE DFKs. The 3-rank deep spear wall seemed to break the knights' charge momentum, causing a general melee to ensue. In each trial, the knights were reduced to ~20 men before my militia broke and ran. Portugese pike militia, at least, seem to be rather competent swordsmen and efficient at attriting enemies coming at them from the front. These results imply that pike formations could have some utility in area-denial and delaying tactics.

Personally, I would have expected the "melee experts" DFKs to mop the floor with these troops, but it seems like the act of drawing swords is what allows them to be competitive at all.

[Spark]

Interesting topic. Great forums too.

Was it the issue that pikemen were performing poorly that prompted the mod, or was it an ascetic desire to see more stabbing animations that coincidentally led to improved performance of the troops?

I don't have much experience using pikes in actual campaign battles, but as to performance, in some combat tests my Portugese pike militia fared well against French Lancers and decently against HRE Dismounted Feudal Knights.

Spread in long 2-rank line, the pikeman killed ~20 lancers on contact, with maybe 10-15 casualties. In the ensuing melee, sometimes all the pikemen would draw swords, and sometimes those in the rear would continue to stab forward while others drew swords. In any event, about half the time this lowly 150 florin unit would run the lancers off the field. The key, I think, is to have lines thin enough and wide enough so that all pikes are down, and crucially, so that the enemy cavalry is not able to wrap around and encircle following the initial crash.

Following this, I stacked up my trusty Portugese pikes against a unit of HRE DFKs. The 3-rank deep spear wall seemed to break the knights' charge momentum, causing a general melee to ensue. In each trial, the knights were reduced to ~20 men before my militia broke and ran. Portugese pike militia, at least, seem to be rather competent swordsmen and efficient at attriting enemies coming at them from the front. These results imply that pike formations could have some utility in area-denial and delaying tactics.

Personally, I would have expected the "melee experts" DFKs to mop the floor with these troops, but it seems like the act of drawing swords is what allows them to be competitive at all.

Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry. In M2TW, pikemen can hold off cavalry but almost immediately break out of formation versus heavy infantry, which is why people see them as performing poorly. It's a matter of balance vs. realism, it would be realistic but not too balanced if you could form an impenetrable wall of pikes. They get somewhat balanced by musketeers and cannon late-game, but that's a long way into the game and you'd almost definitely want pikemen to make up a large part of your pre-gunpowder army if they were as powerful as in RTW.

[Ektelion]

This is probably the reason england so handily beats scotland in terms of infantry balance, IMHO.

[Headlocked]

Boody hell, just noticed that "presenting-bum-to-the-enemy-and-trying-to-sit-on-his-sword" bug.

its simply hilarious.
5 mins into the combat, no matter what orders, and even if none are given, the pikemen perform the exact above manuever. The only thing they dont do is bend over.
My god.
That is easily the worst bug/glitch ive seen so far. Not even the 2-hander one comes as daft as this.

Anyone have any fixes ont his?

[tequila]

I've implemented this fix and love it. The pikes are a bit too strong now, with a tad too much ability to "turn" even in formation and fight, but they're not invincible. But now I've managed to have some real tercio vs landsknecht battles, utilizing historical pike & shot tactics. Great find, dopp!

[Spark]

A workaround to vanilla M2TW pikemen that I've found works quite well is to switch the pikemen's "stance" upon impact. What usually happens is as soon as infantry charge into pikemen, they break out of their pike formation and whip out the swords.

So I've been trying stuff out, and it seems if you keep the pikemen out of spearwall formation, they'll still form it, break the charge and start switching to swords. Just as they start lifting the pikes, if you activate spearwall formation, it seems to renew the "hold pike" command and they bring their pikes back down to hold the enemy infantry away. The only infantry that slip through the pikes this way are stray units that slip around the side to the flanks, and any unit that slipped through the pike wall while you do your little reform maneuver right after the charge. Usually one or two pikemen will whip out their swords to take care of said infantry (with some casualties depending on how tough the charging infantry is), while the rest keep their pikes in place. Then you can turn off "defend" mode at your leisure to have the pike wall push forward. It's micromanagement-intensive, but it works.

[Klaus]

Can someone please post this mod up for people who have no idea how to mod. I would greatly appreciate this and it would make my day. Thank You

[Kraggenmor]

"No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!

I can't believe this thread went to 5 pages and no one mentioned "Pokemen" or "Armored Pokemen."