E.B. recruitment/reforms mod

[Pharnakes]

Yes, I am aware of these problems and have started plans to counteract them.

[Zarax]

Well, imvho what EB is missing right now is a truly effective way to represent cultural assimilation and intermixing.
While the government system is great I feel the long term environment to be slightly "static"...
I feel (again imvho) that there should be a way to be able to integrate at least a bit more some regions in your empire even when there is a great cultural difference.
I'm not saying it should be easy or widely available but as in a way EB already got buildings simulating huge terraforming why not having something that does the same with population?
A structure representing elites becoming closer to the conquerors or migration of player's faction natives in the area (isn't what the "colony" building should do in theory?) that takes huge amounts of time and money but allows you to put a closer goverment type could be a quick and relatively easy solution...

[LordCurlyton]

As a side note, is there any way for a piece of script to monitor the cultural penalty being assessed to a settlement's owner? That would seem a great way to deal with cultural assimilation (at least as a start). In my old Romani campaign my standard practice was to install a type 4 in all new conquests (I even did this for my early Italic conquests) and then build everything I could. Then I'd install a type 3. Build all I could. Then install Type 2 or 1. I found that on average, it took between 30-40 years of near continuous building before I'd even begin a Type 3, and usually another 5-10 after that (at least) before I put in a Type 2/1. IMO, taking roughly 2 generations of non-revolt seemed like a fair standard for becoming a loyal Roman province.
I always thought that as culture penalties were removed that it should logically increase loyalty. And for all those Huge cities you conquer late in the game that will always have a 30% or so penalty due to the central building? They can only be SO loyal in my mind.
And if the culture penalty could be tracked, it would be even cooler if unit recruitment could be tied to it as well (more local flavor for more culture penalty; more like factional for less), but I'm pretty sure that really wishful thinking.

[Kull]

Well, imvho what EB is missing right now is a truly effective way to represent cultural assimilation and intermixing.
While the government system is great I feel the long term environment to be slightly "static"...
I feel (again imvho) that there should be a way to be able to integrate at least a bit more some regions in your empire even when there is a great cultural difference.
I'm not saying it should be easy or widely available but as in a way EB already got buildings simulating huge terraforming why not having something that does the same with population?
A structure representing elites becoming closer to the conquerors or migration of player's faction natives in the area (isn't what the "colony" building should do in theory?) that takes huge amounts of time and money but allows you to put a closer goverment type could be a quick and relatively easy solution...

Truly converting the majority of a population from one culture to another takes a very long time under most conditions. Some of the best examples in our period are the Hellenistic Kingdoms, and even they weren't truly "Greek", but rather had pockets of Greeks in the midst of a far larger number of natives. Even Rome took a very long time to assimilate Italy, to say nothing of the rest of the world. And most of the cultural conversions I hear people requesting are FAR faster than that - so quick as to be quite unrealistic. EB does capture this pace pretty well with the Roman Reform system, yet even there the biggest complaint we hear is that it "takes too long" to get from one reform to another.

So even if we could adequately capture these conversions (and there are some additional surprises in store in the next release), the time periods will often prove unsatisfactory. If we represent the true pace of cultural conversion, people are unhappy because in game terms it's perceived as too slow. If we change it up to meet the desires of the masses, we would no longer be true to history. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Zarax]

Well, that's why I suggested to tie it to a building.
Right now player have the possibility to build an artificial harbour but they know that it's an expensive luxury they can afford only when they most likely will be past the need (if you can save 64k you already have a pretty strong economy).
Having a "cultural conversion" building that takes around 200 turns and costs several dozen thousands mnai would recreate the fact that converting a population is a long and hard process while giving at the same time an easy access to cheat on cost/lenght of construction for people that prefers faster times that what's historically proper.

[Kull]

Well, that's why I suggested to tie it to a building.
Right now player have the possibility to build an artificial harbour but they know that it's an expensive luxury they can afford only when they most likely will be past the need (if you can save 64k you already have a pretty strong economy).
Having a "cultural conversion" building that takes around 200 turns and costs several dozen thousands mnai would recreate the fact that converting a population is a long and hard process while giving at the same time an easy access to cheat on cost/lenght of construction for people that prefers faster times that what's historically proper.

Seriously? I'd rather they have to *suffer* from learning actual history than put in some kind of arbitrary building that can easily be cheated to utterly violate the EB system. That makes me almost physically ill, just thinking about it. Bah.

[Zarax]

Well, users can still cheat by changing reform requirements or changing reform dates so it would be kind of a moot point with all due respect.
It is also historical that empires established colonies and military settlements when and where they needed.
They were not always successful but from my limited knowledge of history it was a frequent enough event that deserves some kind of simulation ingame.

Whetever this can be made or not by scripting or some other emulation of choice is of course all up to the EB team.

These are just my 2cent from a game balancing perspective, feel free to agree to disagree of course!

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Well, that's why I suggested to tie it to a building.
Right now player have the possibility to build an artificial harbour but they know that it's an expensive luxury they can afford only when they most likely will be past the need (if you can save 64k you already have a pretty strong economy).
Having a "cultural conversion" building that takes around 200 turns and costs several dozen thousands mnai would recreate the fact that converting a population is a long and hard process while giving at the same time an easy access to cheat on cost/lenght of construction for people that prefers faster times that what's historically proper.

That's exactly what I was thinking about, too. Perhaps we should work together
I have quite some plans for doing a mini-mod of my own, but first I need to know how to mod in additional buildings (and time of course)...

[Zarax]

Well, the problem is that right now I have no spare time for modding plus what little I manage to gather is dedicated to XGM where I'm a team member...

[Pharnakes]

As part of this mod I am planning on including a miltary outpost building. This would cost tonnes of money, quite a bit of time and would completley kill trade, tax and growth, however it would let you recruit most factional units anywhere. In essence this building will represent all the tedious micromanagment of moving men to the front, that is so hard in EB due to the movment points (I'm not complaning about the movment points here, I know why they have to as they are). Hopefuly therefore, I'll be able to work out some method of giving building times an upkeep cost, but I don't know yet. Is this more or less what you were thinking Zarax and Basileus Seleukeia? (If you want to I would be more than willing to do some coperative thing between the three of us)

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Well, my "plans" are something like 3 buildings:
"Light colonisation": This will be the basis which will be upgraded to the "Colonisation and Colonist recruitment". Light colonisation does nothing, perhaps some penaltys, but it will be expensive.
"Colonisation and Colonist recruitment": This will enable the recruitment of some factional troops and some penaltys because the natives are partly driven off of their Land. Expensive and takes a long time to build. Upgraded to "Colonisation of indigenous citys".
"Colonisation of indigenous citys"
Same as above, but some more semi-elite factional units are available (Thorakitai and Legionarys, but not Thorakitai Argyraspiday and Evocata for example) It also enables Type 2 Government.
Every major culture type (hellenic, roman, germanic, gallic, etc.) will get their own versions, the titles listed above are just for orientation. But thsi is nowhere near finished, as it renders the Factional MIC useless. Still needs planing.

[Pharnakes]

Yeah, my grump with using buildings though is that you can't build anthing else at the same time, which is obvioulsy a-historical, however, I am starting to think that I will have no choice but to do this, as the stupid scripts can't remember over a saved game.

[Kull]

Well, users can still cheat by changing reform requirements or changing reform dates so it would be kind of a moot point with all due respect.
It is also historical that empires established colonies and military settlements when and where they needed.
They were not always successful but from my limited knowledge of history it was a frequent enough event that deserves some kind of simulation ingame.

Whetever this can be made or not by scripting or some other emulation of choice is of course all up to the EB team.

These are just my 2cent from a game balancing perspective, feel free to agree to disagree of course!

It is not a "moot point". You can currently cheat the system in the case of a very small number of factions by changing the dates that reforms occur, but the units granted by those reforms will still have to be recruited in the correct, historically accurate provinces. Your idea would change that by potentially allowing most units of every faction to be recruited everywhere. That is historically impossible, and the EB Team has a vested interest in keeping this mod historical. People can build any kind of personal EB mod they so desire, but those who would seek to publish a modpack which attacks the core of what we are trying to achieve? Well, it's likely to cause a problem.

[Zarax]

Well, most factions units everywhere is a bit of a stretch on what I was trying to explain...

Now, I don't know intimately EB recruitment system but I also don't think that for most factions having an upgrade to lvl4 to lvl3 government would give huge changes in available roster (hidden resources aren still there as limit) in distant territories, would it?

What I didn't propose for sure was something that would make the other corner of the world available for lvl1 government but merely the possibility of a slight upgrade for players that have lots of money to spend...

[Foot]

Well, most factions units everywhere is a bit of a stretch on what I was trying to explain...

Now, I don't know intimately EB recruitment system but I also don't think that for most factions having an upgrade to lvl4 to lvl3 government would give huge changes in available roster (hidden resources aren still there as limit) in distant territories, would it?

What I didn't propose for sure was something that would make the other corner of the world available for lvl1 government but merely the possibility of a slight upgrade for players that have lots of money to spend...

Do you mean an upgrade from lvl3 to lvl2, cos every faction can build a lvl3 or 4 everywhere. Its only the lvl2 and 1 that are restricted.

You would also need to change recruitment a lot, as we don't organise it by MIC levels (mostly), and so people would be building lvl2s and finding that Faction MICs don't give them anything. Unless you change recruitment quite drastically this idea doesn't seem to hold much merit.

Foot

[Zarax]

I stand corrected on the technicalities of what I was proposing, although I still think that there should be some mechanism to emulate the mostly unavoidable intermixing (if only talking about elites) between cultures when a land has been occupied for more than a generation...

[Foot]

I stand corrected on the technicalities of what I was proposing, although I still think that there should be some mechanism to emulate the mostly unavoidable intermixing (if only talking about elites) between cultures when a land has been occupied for more than a generation...

Well if you wanted to use the colony building as the recruitment centre then you could do the following.

Colony cannot be built in areas with type 1 or type II govs
Colony does not have any bonuses (can't mix them with recruitment, apparently).
Colony has recruitment options for faction elites in all provinces.

Foot

[Pharnakes]

Im sure I've seen mods where barracks give public order bonuses though?

[bovi]

From what I've heard, that worked in 1.2 but no longer in 1.5. Haven't tried myself.

[Pharnakes]

Ok, yet another idea - what I will call logistics centers. Thses will be a select few cities in the world that are at the center of many routes, and would thus logicaly become major supply dumps/logistics corodination points. For example, Antiocheia, Alexandreia, Athens, Byzantion, Roma, Kart-Hadast, Seleukia, ect, ect.

This logistics system wil have scripted upkeep to represent the costs of arranging for trrops to be transported from yuor recruitment areas to the rear line of the "front." These buildings will basicaly work like very expensive, quick to build factional mics, however they will require at least stone roads and good military and mercantile docks to be built first, as well as holding all of the provincies surounding the town.


What are peoples thoughts on this and also suggestions please as to which cities should be considered for the honours.


Edit: here is waht I have so far:

City			Region

Antiocheia		Syria
Alexandreia		Delata Neilou
Athenai			Attike
Syrakousai		Trinakrie
Camulosadae		Cassemorg
Chersonesos		Taurike Chersonesos
Avaricum		Batromorgan
Roma			Latium
Persepolis		Persis
Baktra			Baktria
Kart-Hadast		Zeugitana
Swebotraustastamnoz	Swebolandam
Mastia			Bastetunia
Maryab			Saba
Zadrakata		Hyrbania
Kiat			Khwarazm
Lucarottea		Coutinoe
Byzantion		Chersonesos

I could do with a couple more, especialy in barbarian lands, so

[Pharnakes]

OK, here is the list of recruitment possibilites as Macedon:

 
Level 1     25000/2500/2
Hoplitai Haploi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Level 2     20000/6500/3
Phalangitai Deuteroi
Peltastai
Hippakontistai
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopliati Haploi
 
Level 3      15000/15000/4
Pezhetairoi
Prodromoi
Thurephoroi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopliati Haploi
Phalangitai Deuteroi
Peltastai
Hippakontistai
 
Level 4       12500/35000/6
Hippeis Thessalikoi
Thrakoi Prodromoi
Thrakoi Peltastai
Kretikoi Toxotai
Thrakoi Hippeis
Argyraspiadai
3 span
30 mianai
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopliati Haploi
Phalangitai Deuteroi
Peltastai
Hippakontistai
Pezhetairoi
Prodromoi
Thurephoroi
 
Level 5      9500/65000/8
Hetairoi
Hypistai
Argarianikoi Pelekphoroi
Pheraspiadai
Taxeis Triabloi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopliati Haploi
Phalangitai Deuteroi
Peltastai
Hippakontistai
Pezhetairoi
Prodromoi
Thurephoroi
Hippeis Thessalikoi
Thrakoi Prodromoi
Thrakoi Peltastai
Kretikoi Toxotai
Thrakoi Hippeis
Argyraspiadai
3 span
30 mianai

The X/Y/Z denote cost to build/upkeep (and yes upkeep per turn )/turns to build. More factions to follow.

[Redmeth]

So let me get this straight, these buildings are rather quick to construct and they basically transplant your best factional troops to one of the important cities under you control so you can pump out Calawre and Milnaht as the Casse in Seleukeia ( an extreme example) right?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

I have to agree with Redmeth, you have to make these much more expensive and time-consuming. Or we should perhaps hope that the EB team will start such a thing of their own. I think it is "not fair" that the romans can recruit their elites nearly everywhere on the map, whereas other factions can't even build their standard soldiers a bit outside the type 1 government areas. They historically never did that, but, wait a moment, isn't EB about what was 100% plausible? Wouldn't a succesfull Epeirotean Empire also have been 100% plausible if Pyrrhus hadn't died so early? Giving romans that ability just because they had the luck to be the most succesfull faction in history is ridiculous.

[Pharnakes]

60,000 a turn too cheep? well posibly, but not by much surely.


For the rest of it basileus seleukeia, that is exactly what is driving me to do this.


@Redmeth I am not sure about barbarians, who were hardly masters of logistics, were they but something definatley needs to be done for them, after all, in real life they conquered down to Ankyra, imagine trying to do that in eb, bringing up all the reniforcments from Gaul to fight the Seleukids... At present in EB it is just not possible but I don't think this system that I am suggesting (which is bassicaly a logistics system that has had the micromanagment removed from it so you can concentrate on other matters) would be paticuarly appropriate for the barbarians, anyone got any ideas for what would be?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Yeah, that big part of my "speech" was to justify your attempts against those who dare to stand against this honourable idea
But it is that I think that the project is missing the original target, i.e. integrating provinces into the empire. But it is also true that I understand that this is complicated as hell and, well, not really worth the effort as in future builds of EB everything can change. As I said, perhaps it is better to wait for the EB team to do a integrating sytem of their own. But perhaps I just say this because I'm royal lazy

[Pharnakes]

Unfortunatley scripting let me down, because you cannot have any sort of counter that dosen't reset every time you reload the game. And anyway, the EB team have specificaly stated that they are not going to change recruitment.

Basicaly its all CAs fault Ah, well in EB we'll can have scripts that do remember from the last save.

[The_Mark]

(unless you vastly increase the size and complexity of the AI Gov Granting script).

GAH!