Cataphract question regarding availabilty

[Redmeth]

I have a question concerning the Parthian. Hai and Saka Cataphracts.
Shouldn't there be a reform for them to be available, is it historically accurate that they were available in the time period at the start of EB (272) fighting them as the Sarmatians or as other factions they seem a bit overpowered.
Anyway, I really don't know if the factions had access to these units around 270 BC if they did than I have no problem, if not maybe some reforms are in order?
P.S. The Parthians have an Early Bodyguard to be added in the next build is that unit part of a reform? What about the Hai and Saka Catas?

[keravnos]

All 3 nations had catas prior to game's start. As the game continues, the cataphracts undergo some evolution of their own.

Massagetai, (which are a saka ethnicity) even had barded horses a lot earlier. The proto-catas are theirs. Alexander almost lost to those "armored" horses and thei armored riders. After Alexander, the trend continued up until games' start.

It wouldn't be an exaggeration that, based on the facts on the ground, in the era of EB the greatest evolution of "horse and rider armor" took place, mostly in the steppes of Central Asia, spearheaded by Baktrians/Sakae/Pahlavi/Hyasdan and finished by Hayasdan/Pahlavi/Kushanas in the first CE centuries. Only two things were created after that, stirrups, and Knight armor. (which many still call an evolution of Lamellar found in Hye sparapet and Grivnavpar). Muslim heavy horse troops and Byzantine Kataphracts look a lot like they could belong in the time of EB.

[Redmeth]

Thank you for the answer!

[keravnos]

Sarmatians are one of the "difficult" factions to play at EB, but also one of the more rewarding, once you make it. Just hang in there.

[Redmeth]

I think I hung on alright it's 200 BC and my western invasion is beginning in the meantime I'm planning to take out Baktria and provoke rebellions in India with my team of spies.
The Lusitans are going hard against the Aedui.
This question about catas originated in my mind during the "birthing pains" of my empire.

[keravnos]

That is GREAT GOING Redmeth.

Seems you stuck in there, all right.

Now, I am curious, and as a Saka Co-Faction Controller, I am curious on the composition of your army.

What is your favorite army composition? Aursa Uaezdaettae (Aorsi Noble Cavalry)
/HA? Do you use any foot archers? I am really fond of hearing steppe success stories, as it would help us further enhance the "steppenwolf" side of EB.

Man-eating Voinu are also a favorite speartroop of mine.

Genetics show that we all Europeans are descended from some herd hunters over at the Turkestan/tajikistan area, who ventured west tens of thousands of years ago. I guess it is this link that makes the steppes so "good looking". It brings us back to the roots, so to speak.

Your Saka encounters? I see you kicked the crap out of them, still, what were your impressions of them? Over/underpowered?

[Watchman]

Only two things were created after that, stirrups, and Knight armor. (which many still call an evolution of Lamellar found in Hye sparapet and Grivnavpar).

Do those "many" smoke much pot, I wonder ? Not only does solid plate have extremely little in common with lamellar and laminate structurally, around the time Medieval monolith steel plate developed most Western Europeans had never even seen either...

[keravnos]

Solid plate was well known at earlier times, many examples of that exist. The "knights" that evolved, especially the first crusade, bore very little in common to the cataphracts of 2nd century BCE, but not that much...That comment was mainly adressed at the Byzantine cataphracts and Muslim knights.

Crusades was a big way for one to get to know the other. Seeing Byzantine cataphracts would also educate them.

[Watchman]

Earlier monolith plate had had a tendency to be cast and hammered bronze, though. And that had kinda gone out of fashion already by Late Antiquity. Note I'm talking monolith here, not the sort built up by joining numerous smaller pieces by one way or another.

Aside from the other metallurgical developements that made solid steel plate armour feasible, I'd be willing to hazard a guess the actual metalworking techniques were elaborated off those used to produce high-quality one-piece helmets.

Medieval Europeans were certainly happy enough to supplant their ubiquitous mail with ideas picked off their Eastern sparring partners (coat-of-plates is thought to have developed that way off some Egyptian designs), but I'd say the true steel plate was very much an indigenous developement; if already by the default condition the Europeans were AFAIK the first to come up with the kinds of furnaces required to produce iron and steel in required grades and quantities.

The Easterners for their part did well enough "pushing the envelope" with combinations of mail, scale and lamellar - many of which were seriously ancient designs going back to the Bronze Age. Dunno where they got the idea for the mail-and-plates (or "composite", as it is also called) structure though.

[ereunao]

I have a question concerning the Parthian. Hai and Saka Cataphracts.
Shouldn't there be a reform for them to be available, is it historically accurate that they were available in the time period at the start of EB (272) <>?

I can recruit catas as Hayasdan? Level 5 MIC in Armavir doesn't have them - where are they hiding?

And while I'm here, where can I find the Georgian swordsmen? I'd appreciate new ways of whupping Seleukid derrieres, besides hosing them with arrows.

Thanks.

[keravnos]

Nakhararakan Aspet (Armenian Noble Cataphracts)

and

Hye Sparapet (Armenian Bodyguards) - these are your family members' guards.

[Watchman]

The recruitement of the Nakharakhasomething Aspets in Armavir is sorta bugged at the moment. See here for a quick overview of what you need to do to export_descr_buildings.txt to fix it (just search for "eastern infantry nakhararakan tiknapah" to find the right spot).

The Georgians are under the regional MICs, IIRC. Level 3 or 4 if memory serves, but the similar guys in heavier armour, Mardig Somethingorother, you get from the higher factional MICs around the Hai home regions are tougher.

[ereunao]

Thanks to you both. And thanks for the solution, Watchman. That explains my missing nakhaetcs.

[KARTLOS]

The recruitement of the Nakharakhasomething Aspets in Armavir is sorta bugged at the moment. See here for a quick overview of what you need to do to export_descr_buildings.txt to fix it (just search for "eastern infantry nakhararakan tiknapah" to find the right spot).

The Georgians are under the regional MICs, IIRC. Level 3 or 4 if memory serves, but the similar guys in heavier armour, Mardig Somethingorother, you get from the higher factional MICs around the Hai home regions are tougher.

thanks for the tip ive just followed the instructions and can now get the Nakhararakan Aspet (Armenian Noble Cataphracts).

do you find these troops particularly useful? it seems to me based on their stats that the Zrahakir Netadzik (Armenian Armoured Horse-Archers) are only a little bit worse at melee fighting, have the advantage of a bow and are cheaper.

does the "powerful charge" make the nakharaken particularly devestating?

[artavazd]

Nakhararakan Aspet will have a name change in the next version. It will now be called Aznvakan Aspet (aznvakan means noble. Nakharar was a distinct title which was used by the nobles who were in charge of administration.)

p.s. watchman it is not "Nakharakhasomething Aspets" its Nakhararakan Aspet. For the next version hopefully you wont get tounge tied when the name gets changed to Aznvakan Aspet. cheers.


Kartlos are you Georgian?

[KARTLOS]

Kartlos are you Georgian?

ive been waiting for someone to ask that! i am surpirside it took so long. i am not actually. i was reading about georgian history a while ago, and the name kartlos stuck in my head. when i joined here i though it would be a intersting and unusual name to use. i was quite expecting someone would inquire imediately, but it has taken about a year- well done!

are you georgian?