Cataphract question regarding availabilty

[Redmeth]

I have a question concerning the Parthian. Hai and Saka Cataphracts.
Shouldn't there be a reform for them to be available, is it historically accurate that they were available in the time period at the start of EB (272) fighting them as the Sarmatians or as other factions they seem a bit overpowered.
Anyway, I really don't know if the factions had access to these units around 270 BC if they did than I have no problem, if not maybe some reforms are in order?
P.S. The Parthians have an Early Bodyguard to be added in the next build is that unit part of a reform? What about the Hai and Saka Catas?

[keravnos]

All 3 nations had catas prior to game's start. As the game continues, the cataphracts undergo some evolution of their own.

Massagetai, (which are a saka ethnicity) even had barded horses a lot earlier. The proto-catas are theirs. Alexander almost lost to those "armored" horses and thei armored riders. After Alexander, the trend continued up until games' start.

It wouldn't be an exaggeration that, based on the facts on the ground, in the era of EB the greatest evolution of "horse and rider armor" took place, mostly in the steppes of Central Asia, spearheaded by Baktrians/Sakae/Pahlavi/Hyasdan and finished by Hayasdan/Pahlavi/Kushanas in the first CE centuries. Only two things were created after that, stirrups, and Knight armor. (which many still call an evolution of Lamellar found in Hye sparapet and Grivnavpar). Muslim heavy horse troops and Byzantine Kataphracts look a lot like they could belong in the time of EB.

[Redmeth]

Thank you for the answer!

[keravnos]

Sarmatians are one of the "difficult" factions to play at EB, but also one of the more rewarding, once you make it. Just hang in there.

[Redmeth]

I think I hung on alright it's 200 BC and my western invasion is beginning in the meantime I'm planning to take out Baktria and provoke rebellions in India with my team of spies.
The Lusitans are going hard against the Aedui.
This question about catas originated in my mind during the "birthing pains" of my empire.

[keravnos]

That is GREAT GOING Redmeth.

Seems you stuck in there, all right.

Now, I am curious, and as a Saka Co-Faction Controller, I am curious on the composition of your army.

What is your favorite army composition? Aursa Uaezdaettae (Aorsi Noble Cavalry)
/HA? Do you use any foot archers? I am really fond of hearing steppe success stories, as it would help us further enhance the "steppenwolf" side of EB.

Man-eating Voinu are also a favorite speartroop of mine.

Genetics show that we all Europeans are descended from some herd hunters over at the Turkestan/tajikistan area, who ventured west tens of thousands of years ago. I guess it is this link that makes the steppes so "good looking". It brings us back to the roots, so to speak.

Your Saka encounters? I see you kicked the crap out of them, still, what were your impressions of them? Over/underpowered?

[Redmeth]

Thank you for your appreciation!
Well at the start I used almost all cavalry units (Aorsi Riders, Sauromatae HA, Roxolani and a few nobles mostly Sauromatae and Aorsi the Roxolanii nobles need the highest kind of court and are weaker than the Aorsi nobles)
I did use some Scythian foot archers because the Sarmatian ones I can recruit in only 2 cities (I mostly chose nomadism but I think their area of recruitment should increase also)
The Hai were the first to attack me while I was expanding at the Eleutheroi's expense and really had some great battles taking the two Crimean cities and finally Olbia . I managed to take the Hai out as they only had 4 provinces (and their mines really really helped)
I had a hard time in the beginning against Parthia but it was fun (looking back after all these years of AS phalanx-dancing) those Grivpanvar were really nasty but the Parthian HA semi-cataphracts were the worst enemies I faced second to a phalanx army with a lot of Syrian archers and a few Catas (the Toxotai Syriakoi's armor really makes things hard for my HA to win archery duels)
After grinding it out with the Parthians I isolated them to Phraaspa where they held on for about 10 years before I decided to end their shame
If you look at the map you'd be surprised to know that I never fought Baktria the AS did that they were down to Taksashila which they held on to heroically and gained the other province by rebellion I'm at peace with them but their time is drawing nigh.
The Saka were good neighbours and had Marakanda, Bin-Kath and Sulek in their mini-empire (Gava-Saka I took from the Parthians)
In my battles with them I lost a major one because they had like 6 generals in one town and those Saka cataphracts are very tough the Saka Riders and Saka nobles are very good HAs because of their armor. Their foot archers seem good even better than mine (maybe they had more exp not sure) but I'm annoyed that they share the skin with the Scythians. The Lancers I found quite weak as my HA executed Parthian-shot after Parthian-shot on them as they tried to engage. I used merc phalangites from Baktra against the Saka Catas and overwhelming HA ended their small kingdom (large in square metres but...).
Well after reaching Galatia their great wild men became regulars of any invasion force and the Kluddolon are good hold the line type of guys.
Never used the Voinu as I did not expand west and certainly did not want to trouble the Getai (I'm a bit biased here )
Now the Maks are putting up a good fight.
Also I'm playing with my money-script it really helped when I was bored by the endless armies of AS (I did not make them pushovers, they are still recruiting mercs and building some elites but not every turn in every city a new elite)
It can be found here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83349
Excuse my self-promotion but I'm really trying to get the attention of EB members to maybe steer my ideas in a better direction, although I'm happy with it. (This campaign was started without the script I inserted ~215 BC since Carthage already had 1,5 million mhai)
If you have any more questions regarding my campaign more specific I mean I'd be happy to answer.
P.S. Any plans to reduce the distance penalty to order I'm playing VH/M and the unrest on VH I think is higher and coupled with the distance penalty makes a bitch out of governing the outlying provinces especially the steppe ones as I had to bring eastern skirmishers from the Hai lands because all my eastern steppe lands were nomadic and I had not expanded to Baktrian lands.
Instead of letting them rebel and re-exterminating them I used add_population negative not often and in small amounts but I imagined it as if I was sending some trouble-makers to tend to my horse herds.

[keravnos]

Distance penalty is hardwired unfortunately. Other than that excellent account. Some great battles fought there.

[Sarkiss]

nice money script there, didnt even know about it. definitely gotta try it next time.
thanks

[Foot]

Both Hai and Saka Catas will be replaced by early bodyguards. (am I right about Saka?)

Foot

[keravnos]

Yes, but it is supposed to be a secret...

[Watchman]

Only two things were created after that, stirrups, and Knight armor. (which many still call an evolution of Lamellar found in Hye sparapet and Grivnavpar).

Do those "many" smoke much pot, I wonder ? Not only does solid plate have extremely little in common with lamellar and laminate structurally, around the time Medieval monolith steel plate developed most Western Europeans had never even seen either...

[keravnos]

Solid plate was well known at earlier times, many examples of that exist. The "knights" that evolved, especially the first crusade, bore very little in common to the cataphracts of 2nd century BCE, but not that much...That comment was mainly adressed at the Byzantine cataphracts and Muslim knights.

Crusades was a big way for one to get to know the other. Seeing Byzantine cataphracts would also educate them.

[Watchman]

Earlier monolith plate had had a tendency to be cast and hammered bronze, though. And that had kinda gone out of fashion already by Late Antiquity. Note I'm talking monolith here, not the sort built up by joining numerous smaller pieces by one way or another.

Aside from the other metallurgical developements that made solid steel plate armour feasible, I'd be willing to hazard a guess the actual metalworking techniques were elaborated off those used to produce high-quality one-piece helmets.

Medieval Europeans were certainly happy enough to supplant their ubiquitous mail with ideas picked off their Eastern sparring partners (coat-of-plates is thought to have developed that way off some Egyptian designs), but I'd say the true steel plate was very much an indigenous developement; if already by the default condition the Europeans were AFAIK the first to come up with the kinds of furnaces required to produce iron and steel in required grades and quantities.

The Easterners for their part did well enough "pushing the envelope" with combinations of mail, scale and lamellar - many of which were seriously ancient designs going back to the Bronze Age. Dunno where they got the idea for the mail-and-plates (or "composite", as it is also called) structure though.

[ereunao]

I have a question concerning the Parthian. Hai and Saka Cataphracts.
Shouldn't there be a reform for them to be available, is it historically accurate that they were available in the time period at the start of EB (272) <>?

I can recruit catas as Hayasdan? Level 5 MIC in Armavir doesn't have them - where are they hiding?

And while I'm here, where can I find the Georgian swordsmen? I'd appreciate new ways of whupping Seleukid derrieres, besides hosing them with arrows.

Thanks.

[keravnos]

Nakhararakan Aspet (Armenian Noble Cataphracts)

and

Hye Sparapet (Armenian Bodyguards) - these are your family members' guards.

[Watchman]

The recruitement of the Nakharakhasomething Aspets in Armavir is sorta bugged at the moment. See here for a quick overview of what you need to do to export_descr_buildings.txt to fix it (just search for "eastern infantry nakhararakan tiknapah" to find the right spot).

The Georgians are under the regional MICs, IIRC. Level 3 or 4 if memory serves, but the similar guys in heavier armour, Mardig Somethingorother, you get from the higher factional MICs around the Hai home regions are tougher.

[ereunao]

Thanks to you both. And thanks for the solution, Watchman. That explains my missing nakhaetcs.

[KARTLOS]

The recruitement of the Nakharakhasomething Aspets in Armavir is sorta bugged at the moment. See here for a quick overview of what you need to do to export_descr_buildings.txt to fix it (just search for "eastern infantry nakhararakan tiknapah" to find the right spot).

The Georgians are under the regional MICs, IIRC. Level 3 or 4 if memory serves, but the similar guys in heavier armour, Mardig Somethingorother, you get from the higher factional MICs around the Hai home regions are tougher.

thanks for the tip ive just followed the instructions and can now get the Nakhararakan Aspet (Armenian Noble Cataphracts).

do you find these troops particularly useful? it seems to me based on their stats that the Zrahakir Netadzik (Armenian Armoured Horse-Archers) are only a little bit worse at melee fighting, have the advantage of a bow and are cheaper.

does the "powerful charge" make the nakharaken particularly devestating?

[artavazd]

Nakhararakan Aspet will have a name change in the next version. It will now be called Aznvakan Aspet (aznvakan means noble. Nakharar was a distinct title which was used by the nobles who were in charge of administration.)

p.s. watchman it is not "Nakharakhasomething Aspets" its Nakhararakan Aspet. For the next version hopefully you wont get tounge tied when the name gets changed to Aznvakan Aspet. cheers.


Kartlos are you Georgian?

[KARTLOS]

Kartlos are you Georgian?

ive been waiting for someone to ask that! i am surpirside it took so long. i am not actually. i was reading about georgian history a while ago, and the name kartlos stuck in my head. when i joined here i though it would be a intersting and unusual name to use. i was quite expecting someone would inquire imediately, but it has taken about a year- well done!

are you georgian?

[artavazd]

No Im Armenian. Ive wanted to ask for a while now


Im curiouse how did you get intrested in Georgian history?


Georgians call themselves Kartveli ( a fun fact!)

[KARTLOS]

No Im Armenian. Ive wanted to ask for a while now


Im curiouse how did you get intrested in Georgian history?


Georgians call themselves Kartveli ( a fun fact!)

i have quite a wide ranging interst in history. with the georgians i was interested in the fact that their language was so unique.

i find you armernians quite interesting as well. i really respect the fact that both you and the georgians have managed to maintain your own culture in quite a difficult area of the world. a lot of weaker nations would have converted to islam.

i am curious as to what you would say is the typical appearance of an armenian, or if indeed there is such a thing. the reason i ask is because i had an armenian friend at school, he was shortish (about 5 7), he had extremely dark brown to black hair, and was fairly hairy, i.e could grow a full beard by the age of 16. then i heard the tennis player david nalbandian was of armenian extraction - he is tall and blond so obviously the two look completely different so i was left wondering what a typical armenian might look like.

if you had any photos that would be great.

[artavazd]

well Armenians about 80% are about 5'6 to 5'10 in height. stout in appearance with dark brown to black hair and hairy. about 15% are blond or light brown hair and about 5'11 to 6'2. majority of armenians are fair skinned with dark eyes and dark hair. Georgians and Armenians look similar in appearance.

couple of pics.


http://armenya.com/db5/00414/armenya...emovsisian.jpg


http://www.flickr.com/photos/nkaramya/265761555/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nkaramya/343791728/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/poreek/478044140/


http://www.weeklytimes.com.au/2005/1...darchinyan.jpg


http://www.maxboxing.com/Media/martirosyan.jpg




http://www.armenianow.com/archive/20...pub/647_01.jpg


http://armenianhouse.org/saroyan/william-saroyan.jpg


http://armennazaryan.tripod.com/id2.html

http://armennazaryan.tripod.com/site...res/armen5.jpg


http://www.armenianow.com/archive/20...sports/002.jpg

http://universiade.daegu.go.kr/eng/g...?ad_no=6204781

[KARTLOS]

thanks thats very interesting. seems my friend was a typical armenian, he looks a bit like the weight lifter!

what is though to be the origin of the two different groups? does one reflect an aboriginal poulation of the region (reflected in the georgian language) and the other indo-european invaders bringing the armenian language?

[artavazd]

well the Georgian language is a Pre-IndoEuropean Language Like the Basque in Spain. In Eastern Anatolia (Western Armenia) and the Caucus region there were both Caucasian speaking and Indo-European speaking tribes. For example the Armenian Kingdom of Urartu was a confederation of Indo-european tribes and mostly caucasian tribes. The confederation was headed by a caucasian tribe. The leadership switched in the 6th century BC and indo-european tribes became the leaders. The language of the people became an indoeurpean language what is today Armenian.

In Georgia there were only caucasian tribes and non or very small amount of indo-european tribes. It was in Western Armenia that there was a large presens of indo-europeans.

one of the theories of the Indo-European homeland is placed in the Armenian Highlands.

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftB...onicle120.html