Anti-Americanism

[Pindar]

What do you (the collective) take as the roots/reason for anti-Americanism?

[Tribesman]

What is anti Americanism ?

[ajaxfetish]

I think there are a number of factors.

One would be disapproval of American policies, which can be fairly heavy-handed, as well as ubiquitous considering the global reach of the country.

Another would probably be lack of contact with the average American and general American culture, meaning that for many their main ideas about America would be based on Hollywood and American tourists, who can sometimes be very annoying and insensitive.

I think another, and probably the most important, is envy. America has one of the highest standards of living in the world, and even the poorest Americans live in conditions many people would consider luxurious. We have an incredibly high rate of consumption, and can throw our weight around worldwide both economically and politically, making us a natural target for those who wish they could live in similar conditions or take pride in their own nation's power.

There are probably more as well, that either aren't coming to mind at the moment or that it would take an outside perspective to recognize.

Ajax

[Grey_Fox]

Perceived ignorance of the world of the average American.

[Zaknafien]

hm. the continunal imperialistic expansion of the world's only super-power without regard to the other nations of the world, its own masses of poor, or morality? the hypocrisy of claiming to spread democracy whilst undermining democratically elected governments it doesnt agree with?

probably a close second is the corporate congomerates who run the government and military-industrial complex.

[CrossLOPER]

hm. the continunal imperialistic expansion of the world's only super-power without regard to the other nations of the world, its own masses of poor, or morality? the hypocrisy of claiming to spread democracy whilst undermining democratically elected governments it doesnt agree with?

probably a close second is the corporate congomerates who run the government and military-industrial complex.

Founded arrogance?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

hm. the continunal imperialistic expansion of the world's only super-power without regard to the other nations of the world, its own masses of poor, or morality? the hypocrisy of claiming to spread democracy whilst undermining democratically elected governments it doesnt agree with?

probably a close second is the corporate congomerates who run the government and military-industrial complex.

Imperialism?

Hardly, we actually are dumb enough to conquer them and then let them loose. Even with the Amerinds we did things in fits and starts with no cohesive plan of conquest. We're pretty lousy as imperialists.

Some truth on the other points of course, though the corporate "rulership" is hardly a direct connection process. The corps do like to use their influence when they can though.

[Strike For The South]

becuase we're really really really rediculosly good looking

[Whacker]

becuase we're really really really good looking

QFT.

Perceived ignorance of the world of the average American.

Also a BIG QFT. I've travelled a good number of places, and was both surprised at the level of ignorance about (what I think) the average American is like, and thankfully did some surprising in a good way (I like to think I am polite and well behaved, at least not when posting in the org ).

hm. the continunal imperialistic expansion of the world's only super-power without regard to the other nations of the world, its own masses of poor, or morality? the hypocrisy of claiming to spread democracy whilst undermining democratically elected governments it doesnt agree with?

probably a close second is the corporate congomerates who run the government and military-industrial complex.

While extremely poorly worded and phrased, there is some truth in here. America is far from Imperialistic, but our current government does seem to have a really hard time with keeping out of other soverign nation's business. No matter what anyone says, I promise you all that what's been going on in Iraq is due to one thing, oil. Period. End of story. It still annoys me that instead of seeing real, honest to god, determined efforts toward aggressively developing an alternative form of energy (esp. for transportation) and bringing it to market, the relevant groups hide behind supposed "studies" that indicate "there's no market demand for this".

The same goes for corporate America, which IMO has got way out of control over the past decade or so. To be sure though, some of the more moronic America-bashing I've seen and really paid attention to as of late I honestly believe is rooted in a form of jealousy. We have it pretty decent over here, and much of this I attribute to us working our asses off to make it so.

[KafirChobee]

Anti-Americanism: 1) Not being a loyal Bushy 2) Not agreeing with the conservatist agenda 3) not believing in the war in Iraq 4) Not agreeing with the subversion of legal rights - i.e. anyone trying to get rights for those illegal combatants in Gitmo. 5) Not being a born again christian 6)Anyone disagreeing with anything Rushlimballs says.

What could be easier? Oh, and of course anything French.

[Papewaio]

Tall poppy syndrome. Put your head above the pack and it will be lopped off to make into soporific's for the masses. Some countries and demagogues require enemies of the nation, this way they can pass off their poor policies and economics on an external factor.

America is the biggest economically and militarily. An elephants footsteps become a moonscape for the ants that cross its path. Also it is not exactly a master of subtlety from time to time when it comes to throwing its weight around. A fat man playing on the monkey bars will get teased no matter how much he is trying to lose weight. It not only a large target, but it paints a bullseye on itself as someone to blame for ills perceived and real. Things like Guantanamo and retroactive laws gives leverage and ammunition to some who will take every opportunity to attack Americas policy, it also gives pause and thought to those who are her allies yet want to remain educated men.

[ShadeHonestus]

Subjective morality structures easily corrupted by some quasi-esoteric social value placed upon any morality in direct contrast to any American position....almost ironic in term.

What could be easier? Oh, and of course anything French.

In the spirit of Major League..."juuuuuuust a bit outside"

[Lemur]

Subjective morality structures easily corrupted by some quasi-esoteric social value placed upon any morality in direct contrast to any American position....almost ironic in term.

This is a really cool sentence. It looks like English. If you read it out loud, it sounds like English. But like some Zen koan, the more you stare at it, the less apparent its meaning becomes. It's kind of beautiful. How can something be "quasi-esoteric"? What does "ironic in term" mean? Take any segment you like, and you'll be puzzled and amazed.

[ShadeHonestus]

This is a really cool sentence. It looks like English. If you read it out loud, it sounds like English. But like some Zen koan, the more you stare at it, the less apparent its meaning becomes. It's kind of beautiful. How can something be "quasi-esoteric"? What does "ironic in term" mean? Take any segment you like, and you'll be puzzled and amazed.

Its really quite simple...

quasi-esoteric would mean the lack of truth in the known to a select group of knowers based upon qualified (usually exclusionary of all facts rendered for disscusion) entry as opposed to the existence of truth in the known in a group of knowers based upon qualified (inclusive of all facts rendered for discussion) entry.

Ironic in term....going to have to ask to see your green card.

[Major Robert Dump]

I think one thing that irritates other countries is our tendency to forget, sweep under the rug, ignore, or fail to teach our children bad things that our country has done in the past. And I'm not talking about slavery and the injuns. We have this nifty way of starting over everytime we get a new president, or have a congressional agenda shift, or hit a major milestone, like a cheating husband who buys his wife a new car everytime he sticks his in the babysitter.

So then the naivette kicks in, and us good ole Americans just can't understand why people X,Y, or Z would hate us for something that was done in the past. We've gotten over it, why can't they? (not that it ever bothered us to begin with). And people who do point this out are called The-Blame-America-First-Movement, or anti-american.

There are other reasons, but thats the one that bothers me the most because, to be honest, some people have a right to hate us.

[ShadeHonestus]

I think one thing that irritates other countries is our tendency to forget, sweep under the rug, ignore, or fail to teach our children bad things that our country has done in the past. And I'm not talking about slavery and the injuns. We have this nifty way of starting over everytime we get a new president, or have a congressional agenda shift, or hit a major milestone, like a cheating husband who buys his wife a new car everytime he sticks his wanker in the babysitter.

I think thats a very good point, Dump. Even domestically I'm surprised how greatly our textbooks shift from administration to administration. You'll find entire presidencies missing in our own U.S. history books depending on who's in power federally and within the eduction bureaucracy/unions, both sides equally guilty.

[naut]

A number of things really:

• The foreign policies of the administration, the way America acts as the global policeman sticking their noses in other countries business.
• The ignorance of the average American about the world outside of America.
• The sheer arrogance.

I think another, and probably the most important, is envy. America has one of the highest standards of living in the world, and even the poorest Americans live in conditions many people would consider luxurious. We have an incredibly high rate of consumption, and can throw our weight around worldwide both economically and politically, making us a natural target for those who wish they could live in similar conditions or take pride in their own nation's power.

That is laughable. You can keep your higher infant mortality rates, lower life expectancy, high public debt (64.7% of GDP), $10.04 trillion in debt and your wars.

[ajaxfetish]

That is laughable. You can keep your higher infant mortality rates, lower life expectancy, high public debt (64.7% of GDP), $10.04 trillion in debt and your wars.

Worse off than you perhaps, but Australia is not the world. Tell someone living in subsaharan Africa or Bangladesh to laugh our American standard of living to scorn. And that ignores America's greater ability to throw its weight around in world affairs compared to Australia.

Ajax

[Fragony]

Just fashionable to hate America, if you want to be salonfähig you have to at least mock it every now and then between schnapps.

[mightilyoats]

Just fashionable to hate America, if you want to be salonfähig you have to at least mock it every now and then between schnapps.

Why yes. Indeed. That is 100% true. But this trend caused us to look at the US through a microscope just to find faults... And we found many.

USA interferes with foreign governments, bullies foreign governments (even 1st world governments). They dethrone kings and rulers "because they are a danger to humanity". How would Americans feel about a foreign army sweeping into their country, destroying lives and infrastructure? It would be fair. America turned out to be more dangerous than Iraq.

I am ranting. I will stop for schnapps...

[BigTex]

Same roots as anti-semitism. People hate others success. So they look for the smallest flaw, the tiniest imperfection and find a reason to hate an entire group of people.

The ignorance of the average American about the world outside of America.

You'll find that with almost any average citizen of almost any country. Only difference in America is the fact of it's size and diversity makes for more information to digest and learn. This isnt the EU after all, countries are not 50-100 miles from each other, there are 50 states. I find the average Europeans knowledge of states to be dismal at best really.

Just fashionable to hate America, if you want to be salonfähig you have to at least mock it every now and then between schnapps.

That doesnt help either.

[Rodion Romanovich]

nvm, I'll to wait for Pindar's answer to Tribesman's question before commenting

[Fragony]

Same roots as anti-semitism. People hate others success.

That's the american *we rox your sox* version, doesn't help either.

[Yun Dog]

BECAUSE THEY EXIST

and everyones goto hate someone

may as well be them

besides they love it really

If they weren't the centre of the universe then theyd have to go out and invade some more countries till people started hating/talking about them again, like Australia... then we'd all be eating burgers and drinking weak beer...

OMG its happened already !!!!!


to quote US President Caligula "let them hate us, as long as they fear us"

[Banquo's Ghost]

Tribesman asked a good question - what do you mean by the term?

"Anti-Americanism" seems to range from a dismissal aimed at anyone who criticises administration policy (ie on other forums I've seen the accusation levelled at someone who felt Wolfowitz might be a tad corrupt - the tired "why do you hate freedom" gambit) to nut-jobs measuring themselves for suicide vests.

I suspect Pindar may be setting his sights at the European contributors. Still a broad church, but I would advance one explanation not so far offered:

Disappointment.

The USA has a system of government, a record of acceptance and a history of generosity unparalleled in human history. It is a country that aspires to greatness of spirit, and has many times achieved examples of that aspiration. It is a country, and a people, that many of us look up to and dream of as an inspiration.

Inevitably, paragons fail. Those failures can sometimes be looked on with sympathy, even understanding and friendship. That such a powerful country has not become a deliberately imperial state is a source of wonderment, but toes inevitably get trodden on.

Unfortunately, the current administration has adopted an entirely un-American policy of bullying, intimidation and corrupted the normally gentle, patriotic belief in American superiority into an exclusive, rather than inclusive, credo. The country that pioneered human rights as a universal concept now promulgates the idea that only its citizens deserve such rights.

I have no doubt that this will pass, once the American people free themselves from the fear imposed on them by this administration and realise once again that liberty is their greatest defence, and that liberty for all from political and economic subjugation is the best guarantor for their liberty at home.

In short, apart from the aforementioned nut-jobs I saw little anti-Americanism of the kind now prevalent before the current administration - even during the Reagan years. There's a reason why the world laps up American "culture". Fragony is however, right - there has always been a fashion to sneer at the US, which is deeply regrettable.

Nonetheless, once President Bush and his coterie goes away, I would hope and trust much of the antagonism may as well. Remember, we loved you when you had Clinton...

[English assassin]

What do you (the collective) take as the roots/reason for anti-Americanism

On the part of governments, political movements, and other organised bodies: the fact that it is believed to be a useful tool to keep/obtain power. This is equally the reason for being nice to America. Which route you choose depends on history. Or, in a bid to sound more cleverer than wot I am "Cui bono?"

On the part of Abdul, the man in the cairo omnibus: because he's been told to think that way.

(There are aspects of US foreign policy which IMHO it's entirely right to dislike. Quite a lot, in fact. But outside the readers of the Guardian and its equivalents I doubt they are the reasons for any global prejudice against America that may exist.)

[Franconicus]

What is anti Americanism ?

That is the question. And if there is anti Americanism, is there also Americanism? I think there is1

Reasons for anti Americanism:

- America is dominating the world at least since WW2. The world order, esp. the economic and more specific the trade system is made and controlled by the US. Plus it is controlled by the US. A great majority of countries benefited from this system, despite the fact that it is not fair and supports the US interests mainly. Therefore, there are some that blame the US for the negative and unfair aspects of this system.

- American economy model and civilisation is very dominant and in some way very agressive. Although this is seen by many as good, there are also many people who do not like that local culture, economic structures and values disappear.

- The 'America First' policy is desastreous. I can understand every American who says: We have all the burden of being number one, so why shouldn't we benefit, too. However, being the lawmaker, the policeman, the judge is not right if you are partisan.

- There is a kind of ingnorance amoung the Americans. They are the dominant nation regarding military, economy and - let's say - entertainmant. However, that makes them ignore the fact that other countries have different values and culture - and that there is no natural law that says that the US ideals are superior. For example the Social Maret in Germany is something we think is better than the American model!

- Military: The US - any government - has a much too strong focus on military and potential of military to solve problems. `This is soemthng Europeans do not understand and do not accept.

Reasons for Americansm

- America is the strongest nation. Most people identify themselves with the strongest. Like my little nephew: strongest = winner = right side; Holywood supports this view.

- American civilisation is very tempting. American culture is. Many youngsters want to be 'American'. There is a reason why American culture is spreading so fast.

- Of course the AMerican model is also very temting for the 'strong' ones. A system without income tax and social responsibility (maybe I overdo a bit) can be very attractive.

[Yun Dog]

Remember, we loved you when you had Clinton...

*sighs* aahhh Clinton - those were the days *wipes a tear from his eye, and something from his sleave*

[BigTex]

That's the american *we rox your sox* version, doesn't help either.

It's a very simplified version of BG's post, people hate the success we've had. We are the biggest fish in the sea and the easiest target for any problem.

You also have the propaganda people are fed in Iran, parts of south america and mid-east doesnt help.

Other countries using America as an excuse for their failings has also led to more anti-americanism.

But it all leads back to the USA currently being the biggest fish, and the easiest scapegoat for peoples problems.

[Fragony]

It's a very simplified version of BG's post, people hate the success we've had.

That assumption can get a bit annoying, you aren't our golden standard, far from it. Anti-americanism is mostly yeahrightism.