Paying a king's ransom...

[_Tristan_]

Will the Ai ever pay a King's ransom ?

Lastly, having established a Hungarian Promised Land Kingdom (owing Adana, Antioch, Acre, Damascus), I took Gaza on a crusade and decided to wait for a new crusade to take Jerusalem...

In the meantime, I use the garrison (consisting of my heir and various crusading units) to police the desert around Gaza...

As it happens, i suddenly see the Egyptian Heir and Faction Leader each try to cross to Jerusalem on their own with only their bodyguards...

So I immediately send my heir and two HA to intercept...The Egyptian Heir died running (coward....) and my own heir went hunting the Egyptian King further away and captured him and some of his BG...

The ransom was of 12000 fl approx. and my treasury needed it badly at he time (several cities growing at the same time can sure put your treasury under pressure...)

But the ransom was rejected... It's not the first time it happens in one of my campaigns...

So what should I do ?

1/ Execute him ? And get dread for my high chiv general ?
2/ Use the add_money cheat before the battle to give money to the Egyptian so that I can be paid ?
3/ Use the add_money cheat and give myself the money ?
4/ Any idea ?

The ransom seems to be a bit bugged also as I've noticed several times that an arm that could'nt retreat or withdraw (with the skull icon on the pre-battle screen) could still be ransomed but would die to the last man nonetheless...

Finally, to this long post, do any faction in your campaign (yours or AI) get an economy going ? When I look at the Financial Overview (1.1-patched) not one faction has gone over 20000 fl at the end one single turn (at turn 75) ?
I understand that might be one of the reason the ransoms aren't paid but how do you and the AI get full coffers ?

[Ciaran]

The problem isn´t that the AI doesn´t get the money, it´s that it spends it so readily. It´s just not supposed to hoard huge amounts of cash, and so it builds/recruits whatever and wherever it can, which, of course, leaves it short of cash for stuff like ransom.

[Empirate]

In my current 1.2 HRE game (h/vh), the Danes have amassed quite the fortune. Every time I click end turn, they end up richest. Or did, until the Mongols came. On average, they had more than 30,000 fl in the bank. And they only owned Aarhus, Oslo and Stockholm! I beat them to Hamburg, and the Scots took Antwerp, which are their usual venues south. So they sit in Scandinavia and content themselves upgrading their cities and armies and still earning insane amounts of money from the baltic trade.

[_Tristan_]

Ouch!!!! I've just found out I must be an AI parading as a human being....I spend too easily too...And I'm always short of cash...

[Didz]

I'm making between 11,000 and 15,000 florin's profit per turn in my current Moorish campaign.

The breakdown is as follows:

Moors 1376 AD Revenue from 13 Regions (8 Cities/5 Castles)

Income:
Farming 6,612
Mining 6,181
Trade 14,230
Merchants 5,487
Taxes 15,307
Kings Purse 1,500
Corruption 943

TOTAL: 50,260 Florins

Expenditure:

Wages 4,900
Army 29,598
Recruitment 439
Construciton 1,600
Corruption 2,275

Total Expenditure: 38,812

The Moors have some economic advantages over other factions, not least the fact that they dominate the route to Timbuktu and Arquin and I own both those cities and have mines and merchants exploiting the gold and ivory available from Africa.

But as you can see the biggest single non-tax contribution comes from trade and I always give priority to trade related buildings over military ones.

In fact my build priority is pretty simple:

City/Castle Upgrades always take top priority but assuming there are none then:

1) If the city isn't paying tax at the 'Very High' rate, first priority is building something which will boost its happiness so that I can put the tax rate up.

2) If the city is paying 'Very High' tax, or if I can't do anything to improve the situation then the next priority is any building that will improve its trade income. This includes Mines, Ports, Markets, Roads and some government buildings.

3) If there are no trade related buildings I buy farm upgrades.

4) If there are no farm upgrades then I consider a military building, but give preference to castles for these.

I make up for the slow development of my army by hiring mercenaries.

Hope that helps.

[_Tristan_]

@ Didz : we play along the same lines except that looking at your expenditures (439 recruitment and 1600 construction), your recruitment is almost nil (retraining ?) and your construction also (only one building that turn ? two at the most?)

For my part, my recruitment is almost always around 1000 each turn (priest/spy/merchant) plus any needed units/mercs and my construction is almost always around 5000 if I can do it (ie one town upgrade and several other buildings as needed)...

Moreover, I sack whenever the value is above 3000 fl and almost all cities are at VH tax rate... Furthermore I generally keep only one castle for every five provinces and change them to cities otherwise...

But the money flows away faster than it does come in....

And the AI seems to be a big spender also...

I had not so many difficulties with money in MTW... The ransoms were IMO a good way of filling your coffers....

[FactionHeir]

The AI tends to spend its money very quickly.
The reason it can is because it isn't limited like the human player to unit pools, i.e it can theoretically hire the 3 Lancers every single turn while a human player would have to wait some 2-3 turns in between for them to become available again.
Tested that by making Citadels have 10 recruitment slots and the AI was pumping out 10 mamluk archers a turn (I gave it the money to do it) from that citadel.

[andrewt]

Honestly, that ransom isn't worth it. If I was in the AI's shoes, I wouldn't pay it either unless it's a general with 6+ chivalry and command or something ridiculous that will really help. Even them, I'd probably only pay in the 3000-5000 range.

[Didz]

@ Didz : we play along the same lines except that looking at your expenditures (439 recruitment and 1600 construction), your recruitment is almost nil (retraining ?) and your construction also (only one building that turn ? two at the most?)

Yes...not much going on that turn.

I don't recruit many units, as I don't lose very many. So the 439 was probably the replenishment cost from my last seige or battle. Most cities and castles have minimal garrisons and these will be reinforced by a combination of hastly hired mercenaries and nearby army units only if they come under threat. As you can see although I'm not recruiting I am spending over 29K on my army so it isn't that I don't have troops.

For my part, my recruitment is almost always around 1000 each turn (priest/spy/merchant) plus any needed units/mercs and my construction is almost always around 5000 if I can do it (ie one town upgrade and several other buildings as needed)...

I have already hired every merchant I can (Agent Limit Reached) so I only need to recruit new merchants when one dies of old age, and that obviously didn't happen this turn.

Likewise every city and castle has at least one resident spy and these only get replaced when they die. Also have 2 diplomat's, I don't do much diplomacy, and 6 Assassin's. But recruitment is low mainly because I don't lose many.

Buildings are an interesting issue. I tend to have something in the construction queue of every city or settlement, so my construction queue is frequently stalled. Why on this particular turn only one building was constructed I can't say, possibly all the other buildings were too expensive to start.

Anyway to a certain extent the issue was income rather than how it is being spent.

Moreover, I sack whenever the value is above 3000 fl and almost all cities are at VH tax rate... Furthermore I generally keep only one castle for every five provinces and change them to cities otherwise...

Likewise, I usually sack settlements after I have captured them. The only exception being the occasional city which rebels against my beneficent rule. Such cities are exterminated as a matter of policy.

TRADE
One obvious point I forgot to mention about trade is that factions you are at war with don't trade with you.

Seems pretty obvious, but if you are in the habit of waging unrestircted war on everyone around you your income is obviously going to suffer. In fact, the main reason I seek peace with the factions I don't actually plan to fight immediately is that I want to get my hands their money. If, I'm not planning to do that by sacking their cities then I might as well try and sell them my grandmother instead.

[wzup]

I've captured the pope many times and ive always executed him
Playing for chivalry is boring imo,, I'd rather be feared than loved (Niccolo Machiavelli)

[wzup]

TRADE
One obvious point I forgot to mention about trade is that factions you are at war with don't trade with you.

Seems pretty obvious, but if you are in the habit of waging unrestircted war on everyone around you your income is obviously going to suffer. If fact, the main reason I seek peace with the factions I don't actually plan to fight immediately is that I want to get my hands their money. If, I'm not planning to do that by sacking their cities then I might as well try and sell them my grandmother instead.

Thats a good point. I'm playing as the moors right now and im at war with almost everyone except for 3 factions, but this isnt a problem as long as one is expanding ones empire and regularly builds things that boost trade.

[Foz]

I've captured the pope many times and ive always executed him
Playing for chivalry is boring imo,, I'd rather be feared than loved (Niccolo Machiavelli)

Machiavelli actually said it's better to be feared than loved if one must be done without. He says that, ideally, a prince should be both feared and loved at the same time. The statement about preferring fear to love is only meant to acknowledge the difficulty of inspiring both simultaneously, and to suggest which is more favorable to a prince's ends if he finds himself incapable of inspiring both, which should of course be his true aspiration.

[HoreTore]

The problem isn´t that the AI doesn´t get the money, it´s that it spends it so readily. It´s just not supposed to hoard huge amounts of cash, and so it builds/recruits whatever and wherever it can, which, of course, leaves it short of cash for stuff like ransom.

Not true. Double the amount of the kings purse for every faction, and they will all have 100k in the bank, except when they are getting beaten and using huge amounts of money to replenish armies, of course...

The problem with ransoming, is that the AI doesn't have the money. If they want the troops, they will pay. If it's a bunch of poor troops, they will most likely not pay.

[wzup]

Machiavelli actually said it's better to be feared than loved if one must be done without. He says that, ideally, a prince should be both feared and loved at the same time. The statement about preferring fear to love is only meant to acknowledge the difficulty of inspiring both simultaneously, and to suggest which is more favorable to a prince's ends if he finds himself incapable of inspiring both, which should of course be his true aspiration.

I was referring to my style of playing MTW2. I read "the prince" back in high school..

[_Tristan_]

@Didz : I will try and post a screenshot of my Financial Overview...
To compare it to yours...

I've just taken Jerusalem and suddenly everything is beginning to look better
I've 15000 Fl worth of treasury at the end of each turn... (I'll post a pre- and post-Jerusalem F.O.)

About buildings, how can your queue be stalled as (if I understand correctly your overview) you have a treasury margin of approx. 12K Fl ? You should build more than a single 1600 Fl building ?

For my part, I might go one or two turns at a time without being able to build due to a lack of funds...

[Didz]

About buildings, how can your queue be stalled as (if I understand correctly your overview) you have a treasury margin of approx. 12K Fl ? You should build more than a single 1600 Fl building ?

To be honest I haven't given it much thought.

I tend to use the cockpit system when playing MTW2, so just like an airline pilot I work through a process of sequential checks every turn to make sure I don't miss or forget anything.

Basically this is:
1) Target Diplomats/Assassins/Priests/Spies and Merchants.
2) Starting with the Capital work through every settlement making sure it is happy and has something in the building queue.
3) Repeat 2) but checking for retaining and scheduling new unit builds.
4) Check sea area's for enemy fleets and destroy, focusing on troops carriers.
5) Return damaged fleets to port for replenshishment, move replenished fleets back to station.
6) Move Armies and initiate seiges/battles.

So, in theory every one of my settlements should have something in their build queue at the end of every turn. I don't actually concern myself over what the AI chooses to start building or the sequence in which it checks and allocates funds.

But generally I haven't noticed any problems. For instance, my fleets generally get replenshished every turn so money is obviously being allocated to that activity even though all the buildings can't be built. Also, I get the impression that large expensive buildings still get initiated even though there might be a lot of smaller cheaper ones in the queue. In other words the AI doesn't give preference to small buildings. Whether the AI checks the build queue in strict sequence of settlement or by order of scheduling I'm not sure.

I must admit it is strange that AI hasn't spent more on building when according to the figures it must have had at least 11K in hand.

I would also add that I've never actually started a turn with that much money in my treasury, so it must be spending it on something without reporting it. I usually find the AI has spent everything except a few 100 florins before the turn starts.

Perhaps, it stops looking as soon as it finds a building it can't afford to start, but I can't think of many buildings that cost 11K to build so it seems improbable, and if it did that then in theory that money should be in my treasury at the start of the turn and it isn't. I'm beginning to think there must be a reporting bug in the expenditure figures, but I'm not sure how best to confirm that.

[_Tristan_]

I was just wondering...

As to the checklist, I do something of the kind starting with my King and going thru each and every character assigning missions and moving armies then I go through the settlement cycle starting with the capital in two times, firstly checking taxes and the building queue and then checking recruitment and retraining

I'll be back with the screenshots ASAP

[TinCow]

I am currently playing a Portugal campaign where I have given each AI faction an extra 3,000 income per turn via the King's Purse. I have so far captured 3 faction leaders, two Spanish and one Moorish. The Spanish paid to get their King back both times. The Moors did not, even though they had the money. Spain has also paid me for two minor family members I captured.

[_Tristan_]

@ Tincow : Good news...Wish it could be so in vanilla...

[HoreTore]

@ Tincow : Good news...Wish it could be so in vanilla...

Giving them more money also significantly increases the difficulty. For example, I had to fight a 3/4 byzantine cav stack made up of 6 vards and the rest byzantine cav and skythikon, with slightly more byz cav. Safe to say one of the hardest battles ever, and I had 150 survivors from my full stack on large unit settings. And this was within the first 15 turns of a venice campaign, that army was everything I had around greece, so I had to retreat all the way back home to rebuild...

Increasing the difficulty by doing this isn't any harder than choosing the difficulty on the start screen, simply open up descr_strat, search for "kings_purse" and add the amount you want there for all AI factions.

[HoreTore]

I must admit it is strange that AI hasn't spent more on building when according to the figures it must have had at least 11K in hand.

I would also add that I've never actually started a turn with that much money in my treasury, so it must be spending it on something without reporting it. I usually find the AI has spent everything except a few 100 florins before the turn starts.

Perhaps, it stops looking as soon as it finds a building it can't afford to start, but I can't think of many buildings that cost 11K to build so it seems improbable, and if it did that then in theory that money should be in my treasury at the start of the turn and it isn't. I'm beginning to think there must be a reporting bug in the expenditure figures, but I'm not sure how best to confirm that.

Right click on the settlement tab. The order you see the settlements there, is the order the AI prioritize building, starting at the top(usually your first capital. If there is something it cannot afford, it skips that settlement and goes to the next. It also prioritize buildings in all settlements before it moves on to troops, starting at the top again.

For example, say you have the settlements Milan, Genoa and Ajaccio, in that order. They have all completed their build order on the same turn, and you queued up new buildings next turn. At Milan, you are ready to build a grain exchange(600), a stone wall(2400) at Genoa and a Bowyer(1200) at Ajaccio. You have also queued up 2 Italian milita(2x370) in Milan, a priest in Genoa(1x200) and two peasants(2x90) in Ajaccio. You have 2400 florins available at the start of the turn. The AI starts the grain exchange at Milan, skips the stone walls in genoa(as you now have only 1800 left), then starts the bowyer in Ajaccio. Next it moves on to troops. It builds one of the italian militia in Milan, skips the other one and then spends the rest on the priest in Genoa, leaving the peasants in Ajaccio for the next turn. You now have the enormous amount of 30 florins to spend on whatever you want!

If we shuffle the settlement order around a bit, we get different result. With the order of Genoa-Milan-Ajaccio, it will blow all the money on the stone walls in Genoa. With the order of Milan-Ajaccio-Genoa, it will build the peasants instead of the priest.

As for as I know, there are no bugs in this field. My bet is that you don't quite understand the economy and queues in the game(no offense intended). Look at the "End turn report"-card you get at the start of every turn. The balance number there is the amount of cash at the very start of the turn. The amount you see in the lower right corner is the amount you have left after the AI has spent the cash at queued buildings.

And a final question, have you checked the "manage every settlement"-option? If not, the AI builds things when there is no governor present without you knowing about it...

[Didz]

My bet is that you don't quite understand the economy and queues in the game(no offense intended).

No offense taken. In fact I think your right...I've just run my game through another turn and taken the following screen shots and realise that I don't understand the information I'm being given.

These two screeshots are taken from the same turn (Winter 1436AD). My treasury balance at the end of the prvious turn was 1,844 florin's
Perhaps, you can explain the apparent anomalies.


The End of Turn Summary above shows a profit of 715 florin's. Which makes sense as 66,458 - 65,743 = 715. But, where does the Total figure of 11,678 come from. Its not the balance of my treasury which as you can see is 2,996.

Even more interesting, the current treasury balance of 2,996 is not the product of the previous balance of 1,844 + 715 which ought to be 2,559.


This shot shows the Financial Overview for the same turn. The first thing to note is that the Income and Expenditure Totals are completely different. I assume that this becuase they are trying to show the predicted figures for next turn rather than the current turn.

Once again the projected profit figure seems to be the sum of the Income less the Expenditure. But the Treasury Total is nothing like the balance which will exist in my treasury. 2,996 + 1,752 = 4,758 not 13,430. Although I notice that 11,678 plus 1,752= 13,430

It would seem my treasury is missing money.

And a final question, have you checked the "manage every settlement"-option?

Yes! I have checked the manage everything button.

[TinCow]

My understanding is that your income for that turn was 11678. You had buildings and units queued up which cost 8682. These were automatically funded and the money was deducted from your treasury, leaving you with 2996 on hand. The figure of 13430 is your expected profit (before queue spending) for next turn, not this one.

[Foz]

No offense taken. In fact I think your right...I've just run my game through another turn and taken the following screen shots and realise that I don't understand the information I'm being given.

These two screeshots are taken from the same turn (Winter 1436AD). My treasury balance at the end of the prvious turn was 1,844 florin's
Perhaps, you can explain the apparent anomalies.

The End of Turn Summary above shows a profit of 715 florin's. Which makes sense as 66,458 - 65,743 = 715. But, where does the Total figure of 11,678 come from. Its not the balance of my treasury which as you can see is 2,996.

Well for starters the End of Turn Report you get will always summarize the result of the turn you last completed. So the amounts indicate that last turn you showed a 715 profit, and should begin this turn with 11,678 florins in your treasury. That's how to interpret that particular info. I'm getting to the anomalies next.

Even more interesting, the current treasury balance of 2,996 is not the product of the previous balance of 1,844 + 715 which ought to be 2,559.

This can be explained if you have anything in your queues that would start building/recruiting this turn. The game will automatically deduct any item already in the queues at turn start from the treasury immediately. If you have a fair bit of stuff in the queues that will begin building this turn, the size of your treasury displayed at turn start will be hugely impacted. The number you first see is really this: "your treasury total for this turn turn - everything that is queued to begin building this turn." I realize that may be complicated to figure out, so I'll work through it. Note how in the financial overview window you already have 8160 in construction and 522 in recruitment listed as expenses. The sum of them is 8682. If we look at last turn's info, we note that window says you will begin this turn with 11,678. That amount minus what is already queued to be spent this turn (8682) gives the treasury total currently displayed, 2996. So essentially the money for everything you have in building & recruitment queues vanishes each turn before you ever get to see it in your treasury (buildings deduct their full amount on the first turn, so after that they don't show up on economic sheets at all). So your treasury did start at 11,678 this turn, you just have a bunch of that cash already set aside for building projects that begin this turn, leaving you 2996 to play with.

This shot shows the Financial Overview for the same turn. The first thing to note is that the Income and Expenditure Totals are completely different. I assume that this becuase they are trying to show the predicted figures for next turn rather than the current turn.

Quite right. The Financial Overview tells you all the income and expenditure that you are causing this very turn, and will update as you modify building/recruitment queues, disband units, move merchants... basically anything you do that affects income or expenditure is immediately reflected on the overview. The figures tell you what will happen if you end the turn right now: in this case, you'll turn a 1752 profit.

You should also notice that, as I mentioned earlier, the pre-queued expenditures already appear in the financial details scroll. The amount of profit the game currently lists, 1752, is already taking those expenditures into account. Thus, even though your treasury displays 2996, your expenditures this turn have still not even matched the amount of income you will make before your next turn. As a result, the 13,430 the overview predicts will in fact be how much cash you begin the next turn with. If you spend nothing else this turn, you will arrive (as predicted) at a 13,430 treasury to work with next turn. Just don't forget to account for the fact that more buildings may already be queued that will start that turn, so you may still not see that full amount displayed when the turn begins if funds are already allocated to projects.

[Didz]

OK! That makes mathematical sense of the Treasury balance and I can see that 11,678 - (522+8,160) = 2,996. So, that explains that, although it seems strange to me that if the AI has already allocated the (522+8,160) on my behalf it hasn't actually shown that as having occurred in the End of Turn Summary. Then at least the summary would have a mathematical integrity and tie in with the Treasury Balance.

Anyway, going back to my earlier example from 1376 AD. These figures were taken from the Financial Summary screen, and so, show what my income is expected to be for this turn (50,260) less the money I actually spent last turn (38,812).

So, whilst I didn't make a note of it, the projected profit figure must have been 11,448. This was the figure which was confusing Tristram and myself as it suggested to us that there was more money in the pot than the AI had actually spent. But in fact the 11,448 has already taken into account last turns expenditure of 38,812 and has not yet deducted any expenditure for the current turn.

So, its not that the AI hasn't spent all the money it could, its actually that it hasn't spent any money at all 'yet' and won't do until I press the End Turn button. Whereupon it will show what it actually spent as a deduction against the predicted profit for the turn after next. The fact remains that last turn it only spent 1,600 florins on building construction, but that might be the result of several factors affecting last turns income which have been lost as the income which produced that expenditure only appears in the End Turn Report, and may have been much lower than the current predicted income of 50,260. For example, income may have been reduced by seiges or blockades which have since been lifted.

In fact there is no way of establishing from the Financial Overview Report what factors determined the level of expenditure shown on that report and so there is no way to establish why the AI only spent 1,600 florins on building construction that turn.

[HoreTore]

Time for some more explanations:

The End of turn report:

Here you see three things that matter to your economy. The income and expenditure is what you made and spent last turn. The profit noted is how much more money you have compared to last turn. The total is what I called balance. This is what you have in your treasury at the very start of the turn, before the AI spends money on queued items. The number in the lower right corner is what you have left after the AI has done that. In this example, the AI has spent 8000 on construction and 500 on recruitment this turn. You are left with 2500.

As to why the AI only spent 1600 on construction last turn, the answer is simple: it wasn't ordered to spend any more.

[Didz]

The total is what I called balance. This is what you have in your treasury at the very start of the turn, before the AI spends money on queued items.

I understand that except that in fact the AI has spent money on queued items which is why the balance is not the sum that appears in my treasury.

As to why the AI only spent 1600 on construction last turn, the answer is simple: it wasn't ordered to spend any more.

Not quite, the AI WAS ordered to spend more, because all my settlements have buildings in their build queues and the 'queue is stalled'. Therefore, the explanation for the fact that it only spent 1,600 florins on building must be that it COULDN'T spend any more due to a lack of funds. However, there is no way of checking that because the figures for last turns income are not available on the Financial Overview, only the expenditure.

[Shahed]

I've read through the thread but I think I did'nt quite understand the problem.

Everyone knows that the End of Turn report is from the beginning of this turn i.e end of last turn ..... and the Financial Overview is a projection of the status at the beginning of the next turn.... right ?

[Didz]

Everyone knows that the End of Turn report is from the beginning of this turn i.e end of last turn ..... and the Financial Overview is a projection of the status at the beginning of the next turn.... right ?

Nope!

It appears that the End of Turn Report does not take into account money already spent by the AI before the start of the turn. Therefore the balance shown does not correspond with the balance in your treasury at the start of the current turn.

To arrive at that figure one has to take the balance from the End of Turn Report and deduct the figures shown on the Financial Overview for expenditure on Recruitment and Buildings.

It also follows that the predicted balance shown on the Financial Overview for next turn will not actually be the balance in your treasury because it doesn't take into account the money the AI will spend before that turn starts.

Or thats my revised understanding anyway.

However, the main reason for the initial confuse was that Tristram and I could not understand why with a projected profit of over 11,000 florins the AI was only spending 1,600 on new buildings. I think that issue at least is clearer now, in that its impossible to determine why the AI didn't spend more without checking the End of Turn report for the previous turn.

[TinCow]

It appears that the End of Turn Report does not take into account money already spent by the AI before the start of the turn. Therefore the balance shown does not correspond with the balance in your treasury at the start of the current turn.

You definitely understand it, but I think it's wrong to think of the money as "spent." The money is still there, it's just pre-allocated to queued buildings and units. Construction has not begun, there has been no recruitment, and you can get all of your money back without penalty by removing the queued buildings. You still have access to every last penny of the 11,678 florins if you want it. It's important to remember this if you find yourself needing some emergency mercenaries. Just go into your cities and remove something that is unimportant from the build queue to pay for the recruitment.